Really Confused Need Help?

[Ian M]

Originally Posted by Poly

Interestingly despite their being lots of Yam 4strokes around (e.g. on all the Ribeyes) I can't recall any major failures being reported...

Yep , Pickeys seem to love em

[clydeoutboards]

Hi Poly

re some of your points.

we have heard some silly prices for fittings of etecs and when added to the v high 3rd service it soon adds up.

The spin side of this is that some dealers charge the earth for a first service of 4 strokes. we had one in the other day where the poor guy got charge a whopping £170.00 for a first service on a honda 50 where as we charge a 3rd of that.

devaluation: this is simply what I have seen and if less than 5 years old remember they should also be set up by an approved dealer to maintain warranty. either way that is my experience and I stand by it

re indeed, personally I find it off putting when a salesman goes beyond telling you the truth about a product and starts to put knock the competition.

er it is the truth and if it is not please point out where it is not. I am also not trying to sell anything and have not mentioned any make or model and more am pointing out that there are 2 sides to every argument.

re fuel. the reviews I have seen for 150 and 250 show that fuel is 10-25% more on the 2 strokes compared to the best of the 4 strokes. If that is a lot or not a lot as i said before will depend on the user.

re acceleration. yes 10% is better but it is still only 10% and again this comes down to how an individual uses the boat. Interestingly you comment on needing this 10% in heavy swell.

My personal experience is different in the fact that I have been on lot training boats they have also wanted 4 strokes and they have never said that the extra 10% would be great and make there life easier.

I am not saying you are wrong, but my gut feel is more to go with what the trainers are saying as they use them every day and I am sure if the benefit was as big as often implied they would buy opti's or etec's.

re 2 stroke vs 4 stroke in cars. again we will need to agree to disagree big time on this. I am ignoreing your comparison as we both know comparing 100 hours in the sea can not be compared with 100 hours in the water. what we can all do though is google information on the difference between the 2 types of engine and make up your own mind.

Interestingly every time i am done this brings to light the same points and please if you disagree with these please argue with the people who write them and not me for quoting scientists.

2 strokes

can accelerate faster per rpm than 4 strokes
lighter

4 strokes

more efficient on fuel
last longer due to dedicated lubrication system

so as i said right at the start there are pro's and cons of both types of engine and all I was doing was posting the other side of the debate.

Dave
ps Poly FYI we sell 2 makes of new 2 stroke engines and 1 of these is bought through barrus!

[gotchiguy]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

all the rest of it I deleted because it took up too much space not because I agree with it..

2 strokes

can accelerate faster per rpm than 4 strokes
lighter

4 strokes

more efficient on fuel
last longer due to dedicated lubrication system

I may not be the most impartial observer either but this is complete bollocks. The etec is clearly the best engine for a Vipermax but it may not be for all brands.
Watch the videos: BRP, Mercury, Yamaha all make convincing arguments for their products but you can read between the lines and work out the truth. I would love a VMAX SHO but I've never seen one in Europe??

Evinrude E-TEC 150 HP Challenges (Full Version) - YouTube

Mercury OptiMax - YouTube

Yamaha V MAX SHO - A Day in the Life - YouTube

[landlord]

Originally Posted by gotchiguy

The etec is clearly the best engine for a Vipermax

Depends on the set up and intended use.................. And you haven't driven mine yet

[gotchiguy]

Originally Posted by landlord

Depends on the set up and intended use.................. And you haven't driven mine yet

I didn't expect you'd ever let me

[Mollers]

The acceleration and throttle response with my Etec combined with a 4 blade prop is stunning. It took a bit of getting used to, but is great when running in big seas. I've driven boats with big 4strokes, they do feel a bit lazy by comparison.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Hi Poly

re some of your points.

we have heard some silly prices for fittings of etecs and when added to the v high 3rd service it soon adds up.

The spin side of this is that some dealers charge the earth for a first service of 4 strokes. we had one in the other day where the poor guy got charge a whopping £170.00 for a first service on a honda 50 where as we charge a 3rd of that.

so you want people to believe that the scary prices you have heard for Etec services etc are all true but that any high prices quoted by a honda dealer are an anomaly - can you see a contradiction here. It would be interesting to see what a "silly price for fitting" is and what it included, some people are guilt of not comparing like with like - so one person is rigging all the electrics, steering etc and the other is drilling 4 holes and doing up some bolts!

devaluation: this is simply what I have seen and if less than 5 years old remember they should also be set up by an approved dealer to maintain warranty. either way that is my experience and I stand by it

you may well be right - I don't follow the 2nd hand engine market. I've not noticed a distinct difference in the 2nd hand boat market but there are so many factors involved there, and nobody knows whether advertised price = sale price, so it is hard to say. I think the approved dealer for service to maintain warranty is a bubble which will eventually burst as it has in the car world.

re indeed, personally I find it off putting when a salesman goes beyond telling you the truth about a product and starts to put knock the competition.

er it is the truth and if it is not please point out where it is not. I am also not trying to sell anything and have not mentioned any make or model and more am pointing out that there are 2 sides to every argument.

no presenting a 100% biased view (even with that caveat on it) is not presenting both sides of the argument.

I'm also smart enough to know what your search engine marketing was doing even if you don't know it yourself!

re fuel. the reviews I have seen for 150 and 250 show that fuel is 10-25% more on the 2 strokes compared to the best of the 4 strokes. If that is a lot or not a lot as i said before will depend on the user.

I bet Etec marketing can find numbers that contradict those.

re acceleration. yes 10% is better but it is still only 10% and again this comes down to how an individual uses the boat. Interestingly you comment on needing this 10% in heavy swell.

I don't know whether "10%" is a meaningful number or not. Acceleration is rarely a linear thing. I haven't tested like by like so I don't know how much difference it makes - my point was many RIBs are not only accelerating for a few seconds in 4 hours - they are constantly working the throttle to deal with the conditions, so acceleration is important to people other than skiers.

My personal experience is different in the fact that I have been on lot training boats they have also wanted 4 strokes and they have never said that the extra 10% would be great and make there life easier.

what do training boats do a lot though? very often they sit at relatively low speed bashing into pontoons and picking up MOB dummies. Unless the RYA specifically run workshops for trainers comparing engine models they are not necessarily any better informed than the rest of the engine buying public.

re 2 stroke vs 4 stroke in cars. again we will need to agree to disagree big time on this. I am ignoreing your comparison as we both know comparing 100 hours in the sea can not be compared with 100 hours in the water. what we can all do though is google information on the difference between the 2 types of engine and make up your own mind.

(I assume you meant 100 hours in sea with 100 hours on road!) but your argument is misleading. In my experience of relatively modern cars - other than oil changes the bits that actually get worn / replaced on cars are nothing to do with the engine - they are breaks and suspension. The last time something actually needed repairing on an car engine of mine it was a seal that had gone after around 2000 hours of driving.

Interestingly every time i am done this brings to light the same points and please if you disagree with these please argue with the people who write them and not me for quoting scientists.

Scientists - independent researchers in peer reviewed publications or people working in the boating industry? Convention when 'quoting scientists' is to provide the citations to the original publication so your audience can assess its credibility, and ensure you've correctly understood the interpretation and limitation of the experiments. We've already identified that skiers, training boats, fair weather cruisers and 'adventurers' all have different needs and driving styles. Add in boat load, divers, etc - and I doubt there is 'one best engine for all'.

So if anyone is going to trust any dealer on "their servicing being cheaper" or their "fuel economy" being better or their engine attracting better looking women etc - then I'd suggest you want to see some evidence appropriate to your usage and then be wiling to test the assumptions, e.g. on costs of servicing at your local dealer, or what fuel costs etc.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Mollers

The acceleration and throttle response with my Etec combined with a 4 blade prop is stunning. It took a bit of getting used to, but is great when running in big seas. I've driven boats with big 4strokes, they do feel a bit lazy by comparison.

Is there much difference in speed/economy/acceleration with the 4 blader?

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Is there much difference in speed/economy/acceleration with the 4 blader?

Dunno, not tried it with a three blader. :-D When I first ran this boat after my last (now Silverfox ), I had to adjust my driving style big time. A little too much gas in swell and we were going skywards. :-D

[clydeoutboards]

Poly

i might be reading your posts wrong but all i was doing was showing the other side are coin.

re science. Yes I have not quoted lots of who said this and what as to be honest it is a well known fact and likewise if someone said the earth was flat i would not quote every scientist who an prove otherwise. If you are really interested google it or research it in other ways.

what do training boats do a lot though? very often they sit at relatively low speed bashing into pontoons and picking up MOB dummies. Unless the RYA specifically run workshops for trainers comparing engine models they are not necessarily any better informed than the rest of the engine buying public.

wow every time I have been out they are showing how to get the best out our of your boat/ rib/ etc and I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter. These people go out 5-6 days a week and in all weather so sorry I tend to follow what they say as i do think they are better informed than you sorry. oh and you are 1 person where as they are many and all say the same thing.

re the inependant reviews: these were independent. if you dont like what they say please argue with them and not me as I a just a messenger. oh and I have not see an independent review that refutes these fuel figures either.

re

I don't know whether "10%" is a meaningful number or not. Acceleration is rarely a linear thing. I haven't tested like by like so I don't know how much difference it makes - my point was many RIBs are not only accelerating for a few seconds in 4 hours - they are constantly working the throttle to deal with the conditions, so acceleration is important to people other than skiers.

As I said before this will vary person to person. 10% acceleration might mean a huge amount to you and well worth the extra fuel and devaluation but to many it will not and again all I am doing is showing the other side of the argument.

re silly prices. again poly what other dealers do is there business. what is very clear is that lots of people can ripped off as they have no idea what is done for the warranty servicing and what the cost should be and this goes for ALL MAKES. They also, as you rightly state dont compare like for like i.e. fitting cost, devaluation etc.


Dave

[Bushrider]

Originally Posted by kerny

If you want "Grin Factor" go for an Etec

+1
I have the direct comparison between a Yamaha F100 4 stroke on an Buster XL and a 90hp E-TEC on my Searider .
The Yamaha does the job but has a temperament like a sleeping tablet ..
*it is propped well with a 17" Ballistic & WOT 6000rpm ...

[JamesF]

I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter.

We stepped up a few grades of pitch on an SR4 a couple of years ago. The top speed increased, and acceleration decreased. It makes it harder to drive in swell in that you have to be in a trough or on the front of a wave to open the throttle, whereas we used to be able to power up the back.

Whether that's relevant to a big, powerful Vipermax, I'm unqualified (unfortunately!) to say.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

wow every time I have been out they are showing how to get the best out our of your boat/ rib/ etc and I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter.

Hi Dave, training boats run 4 strokes for very obvious reasons. Motoring schools run small, economical cars. That doesn't mean that they're better than performance cars, just better suited for the job.

If you're experience of offshore boat handling is via training boats/schools, I assume this will be basic level stuff.
If a helm is wishing to make passage in moderate to large seas, immediate throttle response and adequate power is essential.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Poly

i might be reading your posts wrong but all i was doing was showing the other side are coin.

re science. Yes I have not quoted lots of who said this and what as to be honest it is a well known fact and likewise if someone said the earth was flat i would not quote every scientist who an prove otherwise. If you are really interested google it or research it in other ways.

I've searched my usual scientific literature and can't find anything perhaps you can share the references?

wow every time I have been out they are showing how to get the best out our of your boat/ rib/ etc and I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter. These people go out 5-6 days a week and in all weather so sorry I tend to follow what they say as i do think they are better informed than you sorry. oh and you are 1 person where as they are many and all say the same thing.

go and ask them if they adjust the throttle as they get to each wave - if they don't I wouldn't be taking heavy weather advice from them - there are plenty of competent instructors who will teach you the widely accepted technique: The Powerboat Training Website

re the inependant reviews: these were independent. if you dont like what they say please argue with them and not me as I a just a messenger. oh and I have not see an independent review that refutes these fuel figures either.

how can I like or not like what they say if you don't post them?

This might be the closest I can find (but its probably not that scientific - doesn't necessarily represent typical rib use and is 13 yrs out of date). It says that whilst the Honda is more efficient at 5800 rpm the Etec is better at 3500!

Comparison Test: Five Outboard Motors - Popular Mechanics

Here's what BRP say - which I treat with as much cynacism as if Honda/Yam/Mariner/Suzuki were making the claims - http://www.chastheboat.co.uk/downloa...d%20docket.pdf but its far from the "flat earth society".

This is probably the closest I've seen to realistic testing side by side on ribs (or similar boats) in real conditions. http://www.fischemarine.com/admin/up...ew.aspx?id=220 Unfortunately there was controversy at the time over the etec figures although I seem to remember Ballistic vigorously defending them and that whilst there was a swedish article of a similar nature that showed up the anomalous L/hr figure at max rpm - the economies at mid revs were better for the Etec.

re silly prices. again poly what other dealers do is there business. what is very clear is that lots of people can ripped off as they have no idea what is done for the warranty servicing and what the cost should be and this goes for ALL MAKES. They also, as you rightly state dont compare like for like i.e. fitting cost, devaluation etc.

Dave, but comparisons require data not "oooh" that'll be expensive. If you aren't willing to say what silly prices for installation are or what you believe the ridiculous third year service costs how will people know if you are talking p*sh or if people have been spinning you a line because you are the "competition"? If you've got credible data it can only help your argument that the long term ownership is expensive.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but I don't think its unreasonable that if one vendor knocks a competitor he might have some evidence to support his claims.

[gotchiguy]

I think a four stroke is ideal for dinghy sailing rescue boats where the quiet noise allows you to relax while watching the boats sail around you. Likewise, they are ideal for all boats with sunbeds where the babes on the front don't want the boat going too quickly. Performance boats though...well....they're another kettle of fish

[clydeoutboards]

Hi Poly

I think this is getting nowhere as you seem to want to missquote all the time.

1: this is no etec vs honda/ mariner. this was 2 stroke vs 4 stroke and I sell 2 2 stroke makes
2: re not finding data on the difference between a 2 and 4 stroke. I found this in less than 10 seconds HowStuffWorks "How Two-stroke Engines Work"

3: I have never said ooh that will be expensive so again why missquote? oh and people do complain about the 3rd service cost and the installation costs so either please research this yourself and you will find that again what I am saying is the truth.
4: you keep asking me to do all the work but where is your data?
5: re go and ask them if they adjust the throttle as they get to each wave - if they don't I wouldn't be taking heavy weather advice from them - there are plenty of competent instructors who will teach you the widely accepted technique: The Powerboat Training Website

yet again Poly another missquote. the reviews show a difference of around 10% and what I said was that none of the instructors have said this is big enough amount to make a difference for them handling the boat in heavy seas.

Poly I am happy to proved wrong so instead of miss quoting me why dont you do your own research and that way you can prove me right!

Dave

[Poly]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

I think this is getting nowhere as you seem to want to missquote all the time.

I'm not misquoting.

1: this is no etec vs honda/ mariner. this was 2 stroke vs 4 stroke and I sell 2 2 stroke makes

except that your gripe with the 3 yr service interval and expensive third service only apply to one brand of engine.

2: re not finding data on the difference between a 2 and 4 stroke. I found this in less than 10 seconds HowStuffWorks "How Two-stroke Engines Work"

eh? I'm thoroughly confused now - I was looking for scientific evidence that modern direct injection 2 strokes were less fuel efficient under real conditions not a "how it works site"

3: I have never said ooh that will be expensive so again why missquote? oh and people do complain about the 3rd service cost and the installation costs so either please research this yourself and you will find that again what I am saying is the truth.

so what are these costs that people complain about? are the worse that the costs of other brands - and shopping around can't get better deals - you need to put numbers on things if you are going to label them as pricey.

4: you keep asking me to do all the work but where is your data?

well I found you some links above - however that's not how it works on RIBnet. Make sure that what you post is correct
If you make a statement of fact, be prepared to back it up with some evidence. You need to support your claims - not ask me to prove you are wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just questioning if there is actually and good evidence you are right! You are the one claiming the scientist say it - so show us.

5: re go and ask them if they adjust the throttle as they get to each wave - if they don't I wouldn't be taking heavy weather advice from them - there are plenty of competent instructors who will teach you the widely accepted technique: The Powerboat Training Website

yet again Poly another missquote. the reviews show a difference of around 10% and what I said was that none of the instructors have said this is big enough amount to make a difference for them handling the boat in heavy seas.

so are you changing your position that you only accelerate for the first 2 minutes of a 4 hour cruise? Have your expert instructors tried it? Because presented as 10% it doesn't sound like much - but as I said earlier the 10% figure is probably misleading. There are people here who have tried it and believe it makes a difference.

[willk]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

mmm from what I have seen the etec devalues the most, i have not seen a commercial company buy one, use 2 stroke technology which lets face it if it was that good we would all be driving to 2 stroke cars, drink more fuel, require you to buy separate oil, need to be installed by an etec service center unlike the yams/ honda, suzuki etc oh and as someone said the other day. you would not drive a car for 3 years without a service on a motorway buy you are expected to drive an outboard on the sea without a regular service! Oh and heck the prices of the 3rd service ooch !!!!!

Dont get me wrong what I wrote above is 100 bias and is the other side side of the story to the etec argument as I am a great believer in knowing the good and the bad before I part with my money.

Every engine has pro's and cons and it is very personal what you like and what you can live with.

Oh one last small thing. Etec owners talk about acceleration and though I am not a huge fan of test results this is true but shockingly by less than 10% in all the reviews I have seen. My other point on this is how much time do you intent accelerating has hard as you can compared to cruising? i.e. if you use your boat like i use mine hard acceleration is around 2 minutes for every 4 hours so for me the 12 seconds I save in accelerating is not a big thing.

However for others who are towing toys for 6 hours a day it is a big plus point.

Dave

Dave, time for a bit of straight talk. You're entitled to have your own opinion here, however, there's no point in accusing Poly of misquoting you when he really isn't. Maybe you're not expressing yourself very well, but Poly is debating what you put on the page, not what you MEANT to say. My reading of your post above is that you dismiss two stroke technology as old hat, dismiss BRP's 300 hour service cycle and focus on the eventual cost of the 3rd service. Running down the benefits of instant acceleration on a RIB is just laughable and yet you defend this position - expect to take some flak!

Fair dos though, I agree with you when you (a Honda dealer) say that you're 100% biased

[Chris]

Whilst being a huge fan of E-tecs I have also come to appreciate the refinement and quality of the Honda on the back of Taurus (formerly know as Pig's Ear :-) ) and going for a spin on Nigel's Galahad with the new Yamaha 250 showed just how impressive these big 4 strokes have become.

Also having watched several episodes of Ship Wreck Men I noticed that it's all Yamaha on their rescue boats and I guess these guys are going to know all about reliability etc.

If I had a new rib today it would have an E-tec or a Yamaha fitted, however I would not hesitate to buy a second hand rib if it had any of the major 4 stroke brands fitted.

[two stroke mick]

I think all of you are missing the point. As most outboards produced are large good. it comes down to the service provider. If there is a good dealer/ service provider in your area that is who I would pick. I suspect that in real world there is very little between outboards (assuming it is properly sized for the job and correctly proped and setup). I am a happy E Tec owner how ever my service agent is about 90 miles away which is a pain

TSM