Regulation of UK Leisure Boating - a good idea?

[Dhf]

It's worth bearing in mind that most incidents at sea are within a mile from shore, and more than likely caused by sum nutter who's just purchased his/her new toy on a whim, thinking it's all as easy as those guys make it look on those tube vid's..... I love heading out past that one mile nutter zone... it all get's so peaceful even the engine sounds quieter, so i think more emphasis is needed in this nutter zone, and at very least make it compulsary to read, The rules of the road, and shown to understand it. and maybe take the free CG boat check and chat, I see newbies on here asking the way forward, and I think thats great, there already half way there really by not being to "now it all" and willing to learn before launch.

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by tonto

+1

In almost no other area are you allowed to use or operate machinery that is capable of killing you and others without some form of licensing and training (and thereby regulation)

This is untrue, you only need to be licenced and have insurance and MOT for a vehicle on public roads, on private land you can do what you want.
In fact most equipment when privately used requires no training or licencing, only at work are you subject to some of this.
Even at work for many examples it isn't law, just "industry best practice" which the HSE get you for in the event of an accident.
I can't see any benefit or possibility of policing compulsory training for small craft, the very folk that would ignore it are the ones at highest risk.

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by tonto

Simple, the same way Police enforce the drink driving regs to passengers of cars! ie it doesnt apply!

Nope, the driver of a vehicle, even stationary and parked can be done for being drunk in charge of a vehicle, he just needs to be "in charge"

I am not arguing that folk should be driving boats drunk, just that there is enough legislation nowadays to restrict personal freedoms, more irrelevant laws that cannot be enforced yet screw everyone around are not needed.

Its unenforceable anyway, how would the Police pull you over and breathalyse you if they suspected you, how would they know and how would they catch you?
Up this way the police don't have a boat nearer than the Clyde and the CG are rarely seen and, to be honest, looking for drugs rather than drunks......

[tonto]

Originally Posted by BruceB

This is untrue, you only need to be licenced and have insurance and MOT for a vehicle on public roads, on private land you can do what you want.
In fact most equipment when privately used requires no training or licencing, only at work are you subject to some of this.
Even at work for many examples it isn't law, just "industry best practice" which the HSE get you for in the event of an accident.
I can't see any benefit or possibility of policing compulsory training for small craft, the very folk that would ignore it are the ones at highest risk.

Fine then the same exclusion could be made for area's of the ocean and sea that are private, and closed to the public and other users.

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

The rules as I understand are if I'm a danger to shipping/others or unable to make headway I can be stopped by an official and held until the police come. (can't remember where I heard that, but makes sense)

Not sure about this, I know that a few years ago when the fatal accident happened off Tobermory the police breathalysed the surviving cox and then could not figure out if they had any right to do so.
Don't know what the outcome of this was.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by BruceB

Not sure about this, I know that a few years ago when the fatal accident happened off Tobermory the police breathalysed the surviving cox and then could not figure out if they had any right to do so.
Don't know what the outcome of this was.

maybe this link works

MAIB renews call for alcohol limits for leisure boaters | Motor Boat News | MBY

How about this one, I person dead, going too fast at night, inadequate training, drunk, and no safety gear
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...0Kate-Kets.pdf

still no need for regs?????

[tonto]

sorry second link here

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...0Kate-Kets.pdf

[GaryC]

Originally Posted by BruceB

Not sure about this, I know that a few years ago when the fatal accident happened off Tobermory the police breathalysed the surviving cox and then could not figure out if they had any right to do so.
Don't know what the outcome of this was.

That is one of many where experienced people (usually with qualifications) cause serious injuries to either their own crew or other boats. [Wasn't there another RIB accendent on the thames where they had been at a party and took the boat out and ran into a ferry]

I think quite a few MAIB reports show alchohol has a contributory factor. Even on the 200+ tonne stuff.

I think qualifications and alchohol consupmption are two seperate issues. Personally I don't agree with mandatory qualifications. When you set a limit then people tend not to go further. I some times change my mind when the jet skiers drive across the speed limit corridors at 30 + knots and through the bathers) but then I am not sure qualifications would stop that.

Alchohol seems to be more of an issue and by my reckoning a national limit needs to be imposed at least people should know if it contributes to an accident. As indicated by others, no one quite seems to know.

[shipmates2]

Is there realy anything wrong with enforcing "mullets" in small craft to carry life jackets,a vhf,anchor, oars, extra fuel, 1st aid kit,sound signal device,water, torch...etc its common sense to experienced mariners(most wouldnt go to sea with 1 engine),but remember most incidents occur within a mile of the coast....the most dangerous area to have problems in... and who gets called out....but not sure about light bulbs...

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by tonto

maybe this link works

MAIB renews call for alcohol limits for leisure boaters | Motor Boat News | MBY

How about this one, I person dead, going too fast at night, inadequate training, drunk, and no safety gear
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...0Kate-Kets.pdf

still no need for regs?????

I was not putting forward that particular incident forward to justify any viewpoint and am aware of what happened. I was simply making the point that the Police were not aware that they had any right to charge a leisure boater with being drunk in charge.
I am still not sure myself even now.

I am well qualified and equipped and I don't drink at all, none of the proposals being made here would affect me one jot.
However I bet they would in the future asregulation never seems to stop tightening. I am sure eventually I would be very restricted in what I wanted to do if some beauracrat was placed in charge of what was OK.
I don't think folk should be drinking and driving boats but there has to be some common sense about how it is applied in real life, a system similiar to motor vehicles just wouldn't work in practice and is unenforceable.

[Silverfox]

This is the kind of life endangering events that happen, and not just abroad.

A basic awareness of their environment (waves to big, wind too strong for novices), coupled with a baby cham or two, the out come could have been very different.

Shouldn't there be a simple proficiency test, operated on-line, with multipul guess Q&A's, and a print out certificate.

Yes it can be flouted, but simply raising the awareness of it may (and I guess it is a big may) make people take note.

Call the coastguard! Maria Fowler is rescued from her jet ski after she and her friend get stuck in strong winds and high waves | Mail Online

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by shipmates2

.... experienced mariners(most wouldnt go to sea with 1 engine),

Where does that statistic come from? I know hundreds, possibly thousands, of highly experienced and professional mariners who regularly go to sea with one engine. For many of them it has been that way for years and years

Originally Posted by shipmates2

but remember most incidents occur within a mile of the coast....the most dangerous area to have problems in

I'm struggling with this statement too. Do you mean that it's the most dangerous area because it's close to land, and land isn't a very nice thing to bump into? If so, I agree to some extent, but it cuts both ways. It's also often the easiest place and almost always the quickest place to get rescuers to you.

[m chappelow]

One advantage with having an aux engine especially on a sailing boat is that it saves having to call out the lifeboat for a tow back to port if the wind drops ,
, because it would have made you late for work or into the office the next morning

End of the day you can be the most experienced have as many tests, rules ,regulations ,permits, qualifications ,licences , but if the nobber,s been drinking or doped up on the so called recreational drugs which now seems to be the (norm )for all types of society nowadays its not going to stop accidents or Incidents from happening ,

looking at incident reports a lot of drownings, groundings or accidents seem to have drugs or booze involved somewhere down the line ,,commercial or leisure .

[Doug Stormforce]

Its a sad state of affair when the people of this country are asking to be regulated more. We are already strangled by regulations and taxes that are used to to pay for the inefficient and often ineffective policing of these regulations.

Contrary to the posters who refer to lots of accidents at sea there are actually very few fatal accidents involving leisure boaters, in fact we have one of the lowest accidental fatality rate for recreational boating (compared to % of boaters) in the world. And a much lower rates that Italy and France (both strict government licensing schemes).

One of the reasons that I, the RYA and many recreational boaters object to strict alcohol limits for recreational boating is that many of us spend time living on board our yachts. Would it be fait to breathalyse you in your own home? A bigger reason we are against this kind of regulation is that we do not believe there is a problem that needs fixing. There will always be the those who think that because they hear about isolated incidents there must be a vast problem but anyone who takes the time to research the matter will discover the problem is very small. These same people will try to compare the sea to the roads. IMHO if you treat the sea like a road then you are more likely to get yourself into trouble.

It is a fundamental decision of a skipper as to whether or not he feels it is safe for him to go boating. Where as a driver is told by someone else if his cars is safe, if the roads are safe, if he has to slow down today because of the weather and so on. When that driver breaks down he climbs out of his car and waits by the roads side. Boating does not generally offer its skipper a wait by the road side option when he forgets to fuel up. If you try to apply the mind numbing regulatory system we have on our roads and take away the need for thinking then I believe that you will end up with a generation of skippers who will not be fit to be skippers (check out our Euro cousins for proof of this).

The fact that you hear stories about drunk boating incidents is because they are rare enough to be of interest. Many on here will remember a few famous accident that have happened over the years but they do equate to a a few over many years. On the roads however drink driving accidents are too common to even report in the media a lot of the time.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Contrary to the posters who refer to lots of accidents at sea there are actually very few fatal accidents involving leisure boaters,

One of the reasons that I, the RYA and many recreational boaters object to strict alcohol limits for recreational boating is that many of us spend time living on board our yachts. Would it be fait to breathalyse you in your own home?

It is a fundamental decision of a skipper as to whether or not he feels it is safe for him to go boating.
If you try to apply the mind numbing regulatory system we have on our roads and take away the need for thinking then I believe that you will end up with a generation of skippers who will not be fit to be skippers (check out our Euro cousins for proof of this).
.

The MAIB, would beg to differ about fatal accidents involving drinking, and one such statistic was 45 in 6 years, and that is just fatalities. They should know as they investigate them all. The other incidents that do not involve loss of life or serious injury may well not be reported (again as suggested by the MAIB)

The silly argument put forward by the RYA is just that silly. If people live on their boats, and they are safely moored, then there is no issue, so the point is moot. It is an excuse to allow some people to decide that they want to be able to take the conn even if knowing they are under the influence. A similarity would be for Mobile home owners. Are they breathalysed while parked up for the night enjoying a glass of wine? of course not, and any sensible person would not argue for it to be so. The offense should be to be operating a vessel whilst under the influence.

You are correct, it is a skippers fundamental decision to go to sea, and i wonder how that decision is reached? He cannot make a proper decision if he is drunk, and apart from that, a lot of it is experience, and training. How else is a new owner of a vessel going to be able to decide what is safe or not, (at least until they have the experience to judge for themselves) As you rightly point out, there are very few laybys to pull into and park up, so the result is that the emergency services get called out in atrocious weather, putting their own lives at risk, because some numpty didnt know what they were doing, or ran out of fuel.

Basic training should be manatory, and I do mean basic, I am not suggesting an ocean going skippers course here, but a PB 1, or 2 would not be such an imposition on people.

Of course if it was manditory then it might well be taken out of the RYA's hands to administrate and run, thus depriving them of their lucrative business opportunities.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by tonto

The MAIB, would beg to differ about fatal accidents involving drinking, and one such statistic was 45 in 6 years, and that is just fatalities. They should know as they investigate them all. The other incidents that do not involve loss of life or serious injury may well not be reported (again as suggested by the MAIB)

Ok, let's use your figures. Now compare them to the number of alcohol related fatalities on the roads and try and tell us drink drive laws have solved this problem.

Making a catch all regulation, for which the policing and burocracy associated with it will cost us all a fortune does not in itself stop people drinking.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Ok, let's use your figures. Now compare them to the number of alcohol related fatalities on the roads and try and tell us drink drive laws have solved this problem.

Making a catch all regulation, for which the policing and burocracy associated with it will cost us all a fortune does not in itself stop people drinking.

Not my figures at all, they are from MAIB.

However 45 people in 6 years is low compared to road users, but then take the number of lesiure boaters and compare it to the number of cars on the roads on a daily basis. As the MAIB have also said, it is also probable that the incidents of damage, and minor injuries caused are not reported, therefore are not available, but should be considered to be quite high.

Just because "only" 9 people a year are killed, does that mean it should be accepted to be drunk in charge?

I am not in favour of stopping drinking, only to help stop people being drunk in charge.

Oh, and to have some rudimentary training.

I really do wonder why someone who provides training would have such strong views against sensible safety and training suggestions?

[Cookee]

Whilst navigating down the East coast on our Round Britain trip it was obvious that every single fishing boat in the area (despite regulation) had failed to turn their AIS on - it's very unnerving to see fishing boats pass by lifting and setting crab pots in thick fog! It seems that if they turned it on the competition would see where they are fishing!

[C2 RIBS]

I have mixed views on whether a boat owner should be regulated any more for leisure users BUT I believe that all boat owners should have some form of training. This is tainted by my father who sailed all his life and learnt everything as he stepped up from dinghys to yachts and refused training, would never wear a lifejacket sailing single handed whilst offshore but insisted he did this for enjoyment.

This can be highlighted by a boat owner on The Hamble who I watched being launched off a dry stack (26ft cruiser).

A guy was at the helm, a lady was tasked with releasing the ropes. The boat was bow directly into the wind and a clear run into the fairway. Unfortunately the crew member released the bow rope first, the boat swung quickly to starboard forced out by the wind and tide in the same direction. The crew member walked to the stern and undid the stern line and tried to pull the boat back! She jumped on the stern and the baot went forward and was blown back onto an adjacent pontoon where a boat was moored(no damage yet).

With the help of others the boat was moved back into the fairway where the helm went close to the mooring pontoons and was blown heavily onto the first one with a loud bang and gouging noise- The response- more speed, the result hit the next mooring pontoon head with the same result. I think at this point the crew were shouting at each other when the helm was turned into the fairway and it appeared they wanted to moor in a position opposite. Luckily they understood the boat would not turn and managed to run into the river and turn around in open space BUT returned into the fairway and started to aim for the mooring they wanted opposite the orrigianl launch site.

Here they managed to enter correctly bow first into the wind and tide and alongside the pontoon. Good I thought all sorted maybe this was a one off.

Next I heard shouting. The crew member was off the boat, tied the stern! and you guess the bow swings in wind and tide across the mooring. His boat has a nice sharp anchor on the bow which hit a recently refurbished carft in the adjacent mooring and damaged it. I managed to get help to them and the boat was secured and it stayed here all weekend!! with those aboard living in the marina 50 yards from launch.

Whilst liaising with marina staff I discover they do this regularly and the marina offer training!!!. Yesterday I saw the boat ashore on the drystack and the boat is fairly new BUT battered around each stern and bow quarter.

Is this a reason for enforceable training/licence? They have ignored all attempts to help/advice.

I know there are plenty of examples available but these people would be classed as intelligent and wanting to enjoy the boating experience but through no training are a total liability and cannot have enjoyed this mess they created.

[Erin]

I know we shouldn't keep comparing this to cars and the roads, but just spend a few minutes in a car park watching all the people that can't reverse park their vehicle..... and they should all have been through a fairly rigorous training system before taking to the wheel. Some people just don't benefit from training and others are just muppets.