Request for help choosing a new RIB please

[Trevelyan]

Hi all,

I'd be grateful for some help choosing a next boat please... I'm new to RIBs and the forum!

Experience: Not new to boats (had a Picton 15 foot speedboat with Yammie 60hp for 10 years, mostly used in estuary. Also have a 3.4m mini-rib with a 15hp). Have done PB2/dayskipper and all that. Rib experience is nil other than a Humber Destroyer circa 5-6m trip ten years ago (awesome) and a mate's Humber Assault (not wanting to offend anyone, not good in a sea). Now I have a young family the Picton doesn't cut it for carrying capacity or seaworthiness.

What for: 60% outer edges of estuary (Fal) going to beaches with young family, 30% a few miles down the coast with young family, 10% major coastal++ missions with overnighters or holiday use, e.g. Salcombe, Scilly Isles (meet the family there I imagine!)

Level of use: quite a bit as live near water. Making me wonder if 4 stroke is worth it for fuel saving (historically have done my own maintenance on 2 strokes)

Storage: Likely to live on a tidal mooring (mud) in summer, enough space at home nearby for winter storage. So size for trailering doesn't bother me. Interested on thoughts on whether this is horrific in terms of shortening the lifetime of the boat.

Condition: No projects. Must be ultra-reliable now I have a family. I'd even pondered twin engines for resilience although not really sure what the pros/cons are (i.e. I don't know what I'm talking about!).

Budget: flexible. Once it starts costing more than the family car it might be harder to get ministerial approval from the good lady. Not really bothered if rib is "plush" or not, the utilitarian humber thing is fine in my books and not looking to be flashy (or get it pinched from the mooring)

Size: no idea, appreciate any advice on this!

Thanks for your pointers!

Trev

[ShinyShoe]

How many people?

What for: 60% outer edges of estuary (Fal) going to beaches with young family, 30% a few miles down the coast with young family, 10% major coastal++ missions with overnighters or holiday use, e.g. Salcombe, Scilly Isles (meet the family there I imagine!)

Probably numbers for each of these bits...

[smallribber]

1) On the saving between 4 stroke and 2 stroke re fuel..... Dont worry about this you would need to use it one heck of a lot for the fuel saving of a 4 stroke to outweigh the potential extra cost of the servicing etc on said 4 stroke (Especially as you currently do your own 2 stroke service). Also I believe that 2 strokes are inherently more reliable because of their greater simplicity than 4 strokes
2) On the size something above 5.2 m and look carefully at the seating layout. Remember also that changing Seating and consoles is not easy and can be very costly.
3) Tidal drying mooring is ok but they do rather mess up your boat... The Seagulls being one of the main issues

To get what you need/want I think you need between £8k - £15K in the second hand market.

If you are contemplating new have a look at this at least for inspiration

https://www.excel-inflatables.co.uk/...virago_520.php

You could buy one of these and source a second hand 2 stroke to put on it. I think that would make a good combination.

It is a 5.2 m rib but very wide so good for accommodating several people

[Trevelyan]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Regarding how many people:
60% outer edges of estuary (Fal) going to beaches with young family-
I imagine this would be 2 adults, 2 young children routinely, often another 2 friends-of-children. Occasionally loaded to the hilt 2 families (4 adults 4 children), but that would be nice sunny calm days going to the beach 4 miles away.

30% a few miles down the coast with young family - really see above, dependent upon what the boat is capable of

10% major coastal++ missions with overnighters or holiday use: Imagine in the early days this would be me or me and a mate (the family would meet us there), eventually if boating goes well family wise and children are of age where this sort of trip becomes more sensible for them, to turn into 2 adults and two teenagers.

Because I can keep the boat on a mooring, I'd rather go 'safe' on the boat size for a bit better sea capability - the young family being a factor here.


On the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke bit, what sort of annual mileage is the point at which 4 stroke becomes cost effective? And I guess what goes with that is what does 4 stroke servicing cost? The mooring is a few hundred yards from my house, so it is highly likely in summer I will use the boat both days at the weekend and some weeknights tide permitting.

Cheers all for your help

Trev

[treerat]

having grown boats from a 3.8 sib to a 4.1 rib then a 4.7 now with a 5.5 and considering a 6/6.5 get something that is ready for you to grow with, not outgrow!

We are a family of 2+2 and has we've run out of room and seating for the use we've upgraded. 4 seats are key to cruising enjoyment, I've never been a fan of benches yet they seem to be the norm at present, preferring a jockey for each person on board, with standing room / tube / front seats for the extras carried on the odd occasion.

The only reason i am looking to change the 5.5 is it only has 2 jockeys, they are doubles so great when the kids were small, which they are no longer!

Most boats in the 5-7m range with the right set up will do what you need. Others on here will tell you how poor the Chinese boats are. I've been loving mine for the last five years and would happily have another (ex-pro Defender) and had the kids stopped wanting to come before they got to large teenagers we'd be sticking with her. Finding something that fits and is comfy is more important to me then the badge or make - this changes if you're in the North Sea every day or a commercial operator but most modern boats will survive the small number of times a leisure user will actually get out to play.

Looking at the current 6m market a new one is 30k, a 15yr old one 15k and very difficult tof ind anything inbetween. There are a few 8yr old 5.5m about but it does seem to be few and far between currently.

Storage wise I prefer ribs on trailers then in the water; sea gulls, direct sun light, other boaters, mud, unhooked covers - all designed to mean you have to sort something in a gale or are getting damaged tubes. that said lots do, it does take additional care of keeping tubes maintained and boat hulls clean or anti fowled.

Engine for me is 4 stroke all the way. Quieter, less fumes, more economical. There are reasons as others have mentioned to considear a 2 er but I have both here (90 yam 2- 90 Suzuki 4) and I find the 4 so much nicer to have running behind me, especially when stopped, diving, fishing. Not noticed so much at 6ooo rpm but at all other times I prefer it.

Rock marine has a Humber in their brokerage, I'd not suggest this boat other then the layout which is what I'd suggest you need for the intended use and numbers.

https://rockmarineservices.co.uk/sb_...-broker.co.uk#


explorer Marine have a 5.5 for sale that could be ideal for you, they are slight;y wider then most ribs so very stable, especially at rest, and thsi makes them better suited to water based rather then trailed every where.

This one is in their store up at rock so not far to goa nd see;

https://www.explorermarine.co.uk/s2.htm

[paintman]

Whilst you can still buy new 2 strokes for commercial use, is there effectively a cut off date that would have meant no new 2 strokes on pleasure boats so you're buying older engines?

Can't comment on later 2 strokes but mine isn't the quietest of beasts! Sat next to a friend who had a 90hp Honda 4 stroke the only way I knew his was running was the tell-tale. To have a normal conversation I had to turn mine off.
And you've got the smoke/fumes to contend with which might just tip a queasy passenger over the edge.

Is servicing a 4 stroke that much harder? Oil & filter change is the extra.
Probably much the same as modern fuel injected cars in that you need diagnostic equipment to sort faults & firing the parts cannon at them in the hope it will cure a fault isn't a good idea (not that it was with carbs either!)

[Poly]

Originally Posted by smallribber

1) On the saving between 4 stroke and 2 stroke re fuel..... Dont worry about this you would need to use it one heck of a lot for the fuel saving of a 4 stroke to outweigh the potential extra cost of the servicing etc on said 4 stroke (Especially as you currently do your own 2 stroke service).

in the grand scheme of boating costs - I doubt the oil and filter is the differentiator? Fuel economy from moving to four stroke brought me a distinct endurance advantage - meaning we can cover more ground without worrying about where to refuel.

Also I believe that 2 strokes are inherently more reliable because of their greater simplicity than 4 strokes

Plenty of debate elsewhere on the forum about that, worth the OP searching the forum for that - rather than just taking your word for it (views differ). But also worth keeping in mind that increasingly two strokes will be more likely to be old...

[Trevelyan]

Thanks for the further messages.

Treerat I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've a young family at the mo so boating hunting to have to do it all again in a few years is to be avoided, rather future proof. The Humber Ocean Pro with the layout of the one you've shown feels right from the pics (although of course I haven't seen it... yet).

On the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke thing range is an important point I hadn't thought of (especially if I am keeping it on the water, refuelling suddenly less easy unless I want to pay marina prices). For something like that Ocean Pro with a 150hp, how many miles would I get from a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke? (Yes I know depends on tank size but just trying to get a finger in the wind idea of how often I'm going to be filling up)

On the maintenance side of things, yes I guess I could do maintenance on a four stroke too (until it breaks at least!). My gut just worries me about valves and cambelts and all that electronic jazz, can't see them still going strong at 30 years old like the 60hp Yammie on my Picton (although I might be talking nonsense).

From the links sent so far the 6.3m humber ocean pro feels more like the space/seaworthyness I had in my head (of course I'm only looking at photos and it might be because I'm still misty eyed about the trip I had in a destroyer fifteen years ago). So I guess my questions are

- what else should I be looking at in that sort of size

- do I want to be going bigger for even more seaworthiness? I really am keen to do Salcombe, Scilly Isles etc. So whilst not wanting to do anything foolish, do I want more ability by going bigger to deal with occasions why I might be caught out by the weather?

-on the subject of being caught out, what are thoughts on auxiliary engines? or twin engines even?!

Cheers for the continued advice. Who said lockdown was going to be boring [to those reading this in ten years, Google "Coronavirus")
Trev

[paintman]

Do a 'search' on here for auxiliary engines. You'll find plenty of opinions!

I do have an auxiliary & have had to use it in anger twice. In 20 odd years.
Split two stroke oil hose on the first occasion & a main engine refusal to start on the second.
Never did find the reason for the second as an attempt to start when 1/4 of the way back in saw instant start & no further issues. Possibility I'd flooded it but the usual actions didn't clear it.

I do a lot of fishing & mainly use the auxiliary to troll.

[Pikey Dave]

If you go modern DI 2 stroke, there will be little if any difference in fuel economy. Personally I wouldn’t touch a carbed 2 stroke, but wouldn’t dismiss an Etec or Optimax. You’ll get a bigger grin for your buck with 2T.

[Poly]

[QUOTE=Trevelyan;824295]
On the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke thing range is an important point I hadn't thought of (especially if I am keeping it on the water, refuelling suddenly less easy unless I want to pay marina prices). For something like that Ocean Pro with a 150hp, how many miles would I get from a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke? (Yes I know depends on tank size but just trying to get a finger in the wind idea of how often I'm going to be filling up)[quote] well if it’s got 150L tank (or say 100L tank + two deck tanks) you could be looking at 40 NM more on a modern engine versus an old tech one (as PD says a DI two stroke and 4 stroke will be similar - although I think the “simplicity of 2 stroke” argument goes out the window if you go DI). That’s probably the difference between being confident about the Scillies and back or worrying all the way home.(or lugging Jerry cans around).

My gut just worries me about valves and cambelts and all that electronic jazz,

they don’t get serviced every year - I do my own annual service and take it to the dealer for the big 5yr? one.

can't see them still going strong at 30 years old like the 60hp Yammie on my Picton

There’s no fundamental reason why not - but in reality most of the 30 yr old 60hp engines are no longer around either.

- what else should I be looking at in that sort of size

there’s plenty to consider at that size, but presumably you have a price/quality point too? So humber are well regarded boats but the finishing details won’t be as good as you might get on more expensive brands. I haven’t looked at prices for a long time but my guess is XS will be in the same price range.

- do I want to be going bigger for even more seaworthiness? I really am keen to do Salcombe, Scilly Isles etc. So whilst not wanting to do anything foolish, do I want more ability by going bigger to deal with occasions why I might be caught out by the weather?

bigger is better for almost everything except the financial bits - buying it, storing it, fuelling it etc. But even if you went longer there are still conditions were the Scillies are going to be unpleasant if not dangerous - and I don’t think even another 50% length is going to increase your usage by 50% (whereas a 50% reduction might reduce your used by 50%).

Cheers for the continued advice. Who said lockdown was going to be boring [to those reading this in ten years, Google "Coronavirus")

Trev

Nobody will be reading this - we will just keep answering the same old questions!

[Trevelyan]

Paintman I'll do some reading of other threads on aux engines...

Pikey_Dave I'd forgotten about DI two strokes. I'm guessing their main advantage is cheaper than four strokes for like-for-like hp?

Poly sorry to be thick but when you're saying 40nm more on a 4 stroke on a 150l tank, what are you assuming the two stroke is doing miles-wise? (sorry but I haven't really looked into fuel consumption, trying to get a feel here of what % more). What's involved with the annual service on a four stroke, is it just gear oil/engine oil and general checkover or is more tecchie stuff involved?

Your bit about price/quality point is interesting. I'm flexible on budget, but if I'm going to go for more expensive brands I'd rather that's because of their seakeeping and capability, rather than cosmetic beauty if that makes sense?

Last time I sailed to Scilly (mate's 38 foot yacht) was in a force 6 and it was hairy so I know all too well the importance of making sure that the boat has more capability in reserve...

Cheers

Trev

[Jon Tallis]

Hi Trevelyan,
I'm a long-time ribber (25+ years), live in Pembrokeshire and use my boat Similarly to your intended so think I can probably offer some good advice. I'll admit to also being a long-time humber owner so might be a bit biassed in this respect!
I have a 5.8 Humber Destroyer with a Yam 150HPDI which has spent the last 15 years thrashing round the coasts of Wales and further afield and has distinguished itself well - I recon it's a good blueprint for what you want (but maybe a bit on the small side) - This isn't a sales pitch BTW - it's not for sale!

Size / layout - for 6-8 people, don't go smaller than 6 metres, esp as "family" means bags, kit, Lunch, BBQs etc. Mine will carry 6 with ease but 8 on a trip starts to feel cramped. Remember Storage - For a family boat people are going to want to keep their kit dry so look for something with plenty of dry storage (bow locker, console locker, bench seats etc). You don't say how old your family is - if there are young members, they will need to be on secure seats if it's at all rough - that will influence your choice of layout and thus size. I'd aim for around 6.5m.

Seakeeping - you want to do some coastal trips with family - you want a boat that inspires confidence so want something tough and fairly deep-vee. Humber Destroyer is a great choice - Ocean-pro even more-so (esp the wider versions). Whatever you choose, make sure you sea-trial it first
(ideally in rough water) unless it's a model you know - similar looking boats can handle wildly differently esp when it's rough. Think also about shelter - nice big console keeps at least you and one passenger dry!

Engines - absolutely no less than 150hp. IMHO 2-strokes (DI obviously) make great offshore engines because their inherently quicker throttle response makes driving waves a joy. If you can afford twin motors - great - but remember they're not really any more reliable unless they're completely independent meaning twin (swappable) tanks, twin (swappable) batteries etc etc etc. You'll also burn at least 25% more fuel than the equivalent HP from a single. And two engines to service! Twins are great but REALLY expensive!

Auxiliary - Remember your PB2? Alternative means of propulsion? for a 6.5m boat with 6 people onboard a pair of oars isn't going to cut it! You need an Aux and something meaningful - around 10hp. It'll need it's own fuel tank and make sure that you can actually operate it / steer it etc. Obviously if you go for twin motors you've already got your Aux.

My Choice - 6.5 OceanPro, wide version with a 225 Optimax or 250 ETec

......and at risk of stating the obvious - Lifejackets for everyone and a kill cord for you :-)

[Trevelyan]

Jon thanks for your reply. Wales is a lovely place and indeed a very good benchmark for the Cornish coast (going slightly off-piste, have you ever made a crossing between the two? Giving me ideas...I'm starting to sound too ambitious now!). Sorry to all that I haven't mastered use of quotes yet, here goes...

I had completely forgotten about storage - really good point, not least if the boat is being kept afloat.

Re twins I think the 25% more fuel is enough to put me off, an aux is likely to fine for any conditions that I'm likely to attempt 'family trips' in and part of my brief is to avoid a project boat, so hopefully shouldn't have breakdowns (yes don't count chickens!)

Security of children is an interesting one I hadn't thought of too. My son is 2 at the moment. Should I be looking at double jockey seat so my wife can hang on to him in front or...?

So I think I'm circa 6-6.5m circa 150hp and the Humber Destroyer or Ocean Pro is a good benchmark. I started this thread off mentioning humber because I know them, but what else should I be looking at? I can go higher on price, but my focus is on the ability of the boat rather than how tasty it is.

Cheers

Trev

[Jon Tallis]

Trev.
No-never done Pembs to Cornwall - that would definitely be one for a very flat day!

If you've got a 2yr old on board, yes they definitely need to be somewhere that an adult can hold on to them 100% of the time, which means the adult needs to be seated securely too, meaning either double jockeys or a nice deep, secure rear bench with backrest (but now we're into 'leisure rib' territory which i detect is not what you're looking for). The little ones need to be wearing either full auto, or more ideally permanent buoyancy lifejackets with proper crotch straps. Also make sure at least one other adult on the boat knows how to operate it in case something happens to you.

Other makes / models.........Ribcraft, RibTec, Ocean, XS, Gemini.......But I'm not an expert on these makes so can't suggest models........Look for something that is sold for commercial as well as leisure use, has a good deep vee and sits unladen with at least the stern 1/3 of it's tubes in the water - a "tube-riding" boat will give you a much smoother, more stable and confidence-inspiring ride than a hull-rider like a Rib-Eye (horrid things!). As in my earlier reply, whatever you buy, make sure you've driven that hull in rough water and that you like the way it handles. Remember - you're out there to give your family & friends a pleasant and safe day on the water - not to scare them witless!

I hope this is of use - feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat on the phone

Jon

[treerat]

My kids stayed in full foam lifejackets up to the age of 11 or so, now moved into autos.

We used to use a sit and hold approach, one of the lads uses a car seat on a jockey. It does add a layer of security but also introduces risk.

I think these days it's more about finding what works for you, especially 2nd hand, then what brands are best.

[Jon Tallis]

I nearly went down the car seat approach but the idea of flipping the boat with a kid strapped in was too awful to imagine...... But if its flipping the boat weather then there shouldn't be little ones aboard in any case......or maybe anyone..... IMHO...

Originally Posted by treerat

My kids stayed in full foam lifejackets up to the age of 11 or so, now moved into autos.

We used to use a sit and hold approach, one of the lads uses a car seat on a jockey. It does add a layer of security but also introduces risk.

I think these days it's more about finding what works for you, especially 2nd hand, then what brands are best.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Jon Tallis

I nearly went down the car seat approach but the idea of flipping the boat with a kid strapped in was too awful to imagine...... But if its flipping the boat weather then there shouldn't be little ones aboard in any case......or maybe anyone..... IMHO...

It’s not impossible to flip a rib in pleasant weather, especially if you have loads of power and like messing around in big wakes etc. But that style of helming probably doesn’t mix two well with 2 yr olds. Presumably with a toddler who will get cold quickly, either be bored or fall asleep, and doesn’t mix well with big shock loads you are expecting to be taking them for short hops to the beach etc? In that case your biggest risk of capsize is probably some poorly judged surf.

To me the idea of flipping a rib with a 2 yr old on board isn’t actually that much worse with them strapped in - assuming you are at speed an unconstrained 2 yr old getting ejected is not going to go well; and they’ll be hitting water which at a temperature which with a much higher relative surface area, no dry suit, and no prospect of self rescue.

[Poly]

On the 2 v 4 questions:

- fuel economy between old tech two stroke and modern four stroke is usually quoted as being about 25% better - very roughly speaking you’ll get about 1NM/L on a rib

- you can read the manual for any planned outboard on line and it will tell you what’s required each year. Normal would be oil and filters, lube all the moving bits, replace the impeller, check everything else for wear n tare/play, change gearbox oil, possible fuel filter, The oil and filters is extra for a 4 str but then you aren’t buying oil to burn all year. If servicing is a major worry than Etec would have been the way to go - where it’s only every three years and special button press every year and a wipe with an oily rag... but I’m not sure if people are less enthused with them no longer being produced?

- the advantage of DI engines (over 4 str) is their torque at low revs this equates to better acceleration so getting on the plane quicker - a more responsive throttle helps you work the engine to handle bigger waves etc - looks to me like this is in part the reason why engine sizes have grown on ribs over the last two decades.

[hyndlandguy]

I was also fairly new to boating a couple of years ago when I decided I wanted a RIB for use on the north Cornish coast, with trips to the Scilly Islands etc a little like you. I run mine from Rock to St. Ives a lot and Scillys occasionally.

So to share my experiences with you, I'd say as follows. The south coast and the Fal is a little smoother than the north, but if you are thinking of heading to the Scilly's or coming up round Lands End / Longships you dont want to be doing that in anything under 6m in my opinion unless it dead flat, sunny and calm. I was going to go with a 6m RIB from Rock Marine on their recommendation, but in the end bought a Brig Eagle 8 from them, and so glad I did. 6m is fine in the estuary, but as soon as you head out to open water it can get hairy in Cornwall quickly. I would not like to be out there in under 6 from my experiences this summer, as it is a bigger swell than I expected. I know the south coast is not as rough, but some of the seas off Cornwall can be "exhilarating" to say the least!

Highly recommend Rock Marine, and they do a full launch / storage programme if thats if interest to you as they are not far from you? My boat is kept immaculate, and while yes its on a tidal mooring I only have it in the water when I know I am using the boat as they launch / recover and store for you, and valet the boat so its immaculate. Yes there is a charge to that, but its not nuts and allows you to enjoy your boat without the stress / hassle.