RIB-X/Falcon 700

[Manos]

< Split from the RIBEX 2004 thread JK >

WOW Paul
The boat seems OK to me and have taken it all over and in very variable weather and sea state conditions.
I don't know why you felt like that. Have they changed the desing or something?? Very strange.
If you ever come to Greece (I hope you all do) will take you on mine and have a second ride see what you think.
I may be biased though, so if any one else went on the 700RSR I would like to know what you thought of it. Really I do.

[jackeen]

I'm not technical when it comes to boats and don't know my arse from my elbow as all too often I'm told so it could have been the set up or the driver or both or whatever.


When running and landing it was completly on its port side - not a little - alot. If he had even a little air I felt like I was going to be flipped out constantly. he gave aload of bollix and it was totalbollix about how he was demonstrating how the boat recovers when it comes down on one of the sponsons.

Up wind down wind made no differance


Couldn't wait to get off.

225 honda on the tail

As I said IMHO and I know feck all.

Paul

[Manos]

Yes I know what you mean Paul about the side thing. I agree 100%
This happens to someone who does not have enough experience in driving this type of boat or has not set up the outboard motor correctly.
I have had the same problem (and a few more) at first but after a few weeks of constant trying (9am to 9 pm at sea and Joanna complaining!!) and a lot of money spent in petrol and oil, I managed to find how to handle it.
I also had some help on how to trim it etc from the Falcon guys. Is not an easy boat to handle. You need time to learn it.
I think that the wable thing apart from wrong trim, is mainly due to engine set up too.
Do you mean that they put a 225 on it?? Is too big for that hull!!
I do not think that the 700RSR hull can handle more than 200 (and that is too much, I know I've got one). The optimum is 150.
Is a long write up about how and what to do with the trim and throttle and I think an entertaining talk over a bottle of wine during a warm summer evening at the beach or on the boat
Cheers

[Alan]

Manos,

Have you read RIB International's review of the Rib X (Falcon I assume) 700?!

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Manos

I may be biased though, so if any one else went on the 700RSR I would like to know what you thought of it. Really I do.

It was quite simply the worst RIB ride that I can remember. Seriously.

After all the talk about Falcons here I thought it would be good to see for myself what it was really like. I had seen the bad write up in RIB International but thought it was probably a one off, badly set up boat. After all, it's apparently got a great race pedigree and it does look like it ought to do the business . . .

The seating design was disasterous which meant that we were clinging on to stay into the boat. Not a good start! I now understand a bit more why the boat tests in RIB International are so fixated on the seats; if you can't sit securely to start with, it makes it very difficult to judge whether the boat itself is actually any good.

Even making allowances for the seating though, the ride was harsh and as noted by Paul the boat always landed hard on the port chine. I'm not convinced that the demo driver was the best ambassador for the boat, but it was more than just bad driving.

It may be that the boat was badly rigged, in which case the importers need some serious technical help as they seemed to reckon that it was fine. If it wasn't badly rigged, then it's just a bad boat.

I was told that the boat was an "in the air boat, not an on the water boat", that it needs "quite a lot of time to learn to drive it properly" but at the same time it was a "very forgiving" boat. None of which inspired confidence.

From my experience yesterday I wouldn't want one if it was offered to me for nothing.

John

[Manos]

No Alan, I haven't unfortunately. I am in Greece and I only get the mag in the UK. Wife is sick and tired of boats so she hasn't posted it
What was it saying. I genuinly like to know as I may be completely biased about the boat and have to reconsider. I am taking out again tomorrow for a test hard ride just to make sure. But so far it has been OK.

[Manos]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

The seating design was disasterous which meant that we were clinging on to stay into the boat. Not a good start! I now understand a bit more why the boat tests in RIB International are so fixated on the seats; if you can't sit securely to start with, it makes it very difficult to judge whether the boat itself is actually any good.

If they do not have the bucket type seats I have on mine is WRONG and I would agree that is VERY dangerous to have the seating arrangement with the cousions as in high speeds and in jumps you can get off it. You need bucket type seats.

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Even making allowances for the seating though, the ride was harsh and as noted by Paul the boat always landed hard on the port chine. I'm not convinced that the demo driver was the best ambassador for the boat, but it was more than just bad driving.

This must be wrong engine set up. We had the same experience in Greece when we fitted a 700RSR with 150 Suzuki 4stroke. Suzukis have 2 caviation plates. One on top of the engine and the other just a bit higher. When we set it up first with the engine full down the boat jumped like a gazelle, wabled etc. When we lifted the engine up one notch it went streight no ups or down or wables. Also trimming the boat correctly is very important. If you do not trim the boat the nose goes up an down and it wables (I think on the port side).

Originally Posted by John Kennett

It may be that the boat was badly rigged, in which case the importers need some serious technical help as they seemed to reckon that it was fine. If it wasn't badly rigged, then it's just a bad boat.

I cannot say anything here as I do not know what was the rigging like. I suppose they went for cheap and you get what you pay for. If they economised on the rigging ..... is bad for them.

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I was told that the boat was an "in the air boat, not an on the water boat", that it needs "quite a lot of time to learn to drive it properly" but at the same time it was a "very forgiving" boat. None of which inspired confidence.

Is both 'air' and 'water' boat. It depends how you drive it. Yes you do need quite a long time to learn how to handle it and probaly they need sometime too
And NO, IS NOT A 'FORGIVING BOAT' although sometimes when I did a few stupid things on it I thought that I came out of the situation in one piece cause the boat forgave my mistake. In general, I think that this boat is a hard boat to drive correctly.

Hey, I must invite you all in Greece foir a test drive

As I said tomorrow 1st thing, I'm on it again just to re-re-re-check for the 1000sent time. Check this port wable thing again and I will be 100% honset on what I find.

FEWWWWWWWWW!!! Now you all have made me re-think about it.

PS Also I think that 225 engine as I said previously is too much for this hull. This engine in my view was a BIIIIG mistake. Big and heavy!

[Alan]

Manos,
RIB International does not as a rule (IMHO) tend to be that critical of RIBs (dare I say not wanting to risk advertisers wrath ) but this was for them at least a fairly direct and damning report. You might like to get your mrs to send it to you.

JK knows what he's about on RIBS so I'd be concerned. (I hasten to add that Mr Jackeen also knows more than he thinks he does! )

Interestingly enough I was told by one rib.netter at the show that the chap on the Falcon reacted rather unfavourably to him when he saw that he was wearing a rib.net polo shirt.................

[Manos]

OK guys the moment of truth as we saw it today.
Just got back from the beach. Weather is GREAT just a little breeze NNE and sea state calm. Ideal conditions to race a boat.
I will not bother you with photos but with the facts.

The set up: FALCON 700RSR, 200VMax Yamaha with 21" Yam Pro SS prop and 5bhp Aux, A-frame, 100 ltrs fuel, full tank with oil, spare tank with 35 litres of fuel, 7kg anchor, 15 mtrs chain, total of 100 mtrs ropes and 10 life jackets and a life raft. Two persons about 90-95 kgs in weight each. Wind force 3 NNE. Sea state calm. Engine is set up by Falcon in SA and if you need any clarification as to where it is in relation to the transom, hull etc I can give it to you, but right now is too hot to go out and measure things. Area Assimakis beach near Cape Sounion.

1. The problem with the boat leaning on the port side: Yes it does, BUT only at around 40 knots. Before 40 knots and up to 35-36 or so and also pass that point and at 43-45 knots it corrects its self and is on the straight again.

2. Trimming: The boat is very (I MEAN VERY) responsive to trim. As I have said before. With full trim down the nose sticks in the water and is very obvious as the boat leans completely forward. At trim on 2/2.5 (on the Yam trim gauge) the nose comes up quite a lot and up to 4 the boat gains speed, revs go up and comes out of the water completely. At trim 4.5 the boat slows down and you get a noise from the prop. At trim near 4-4.2 if you hit any waves the boat waves up and down (is this the right expression?) we call it in Greece that it behaves like a dolphin, and the trim needs to come down again just a notch and this effect stops.

3. Turning: On a 380 deg turns and at about 30/32 knots with trim at 2-2.5 the boat turns without any problem and comes out of the turn with the same speed as when it went in the turn. On 380 deg turn and at about 47-50 knots with trim down to 1/1.5 the boat tends to slide just a tinny bit mid way and then you can feel the hull (with a small juddering not to the hull but to your body - if this is the right expression again) getting its grip again and carry on as normal. Again the boat comes out of the turn without having lost speed (or in some runs we did lost a couple of knots). There was no prop ventilation at any one point except when we tried a turn at WOT with trim mid way and the result was as you would expect.

5. Speeds: Cruising is comfortable to very comfortable (in this very nice and calm sea and smooth wind state conditions) at 33-35 knots on GPS, 3800 revs and trim at 2.5/3.00 on the Yam trim gauge. At WOT and at 5700 revs with two persons onboard, trim at 3.6-4.0 (this Yam trim gauge goes up and down for some reason but they say is normal) top speed on GPS was between 54-56knots. We made quite a few runs so we got the slowest and the fastest. We felt that with less weight on the boat it may have gone faster, but this is another matter.

6.Safety: At no time we felt unsafe on the boat. I suppose this is because of the bucket type seats I have on it (driver, co-driver and aft bench are all bucket type). The boat felt fine. We felt that the seating arrangement you have described previously (not bucket type seats) is NOT A SAFE arrangement for this type of boat.

7. Throttle/Trim: As I said in previous posts again today we found that to handle the boat correctly one has to play constantly with the trim and the throttle. You cannot just let it go unattended (which I think was the case). We feel that this is a specialists boat (if I can use this expression) and not a boat for mainly recreational purposes (although I use it and I'm happy with that). We do not believe that it should be compared with those RIBs of recreational use. As we feel is comparing a F3 or F2 formula car with a normal car for the road.

9. Finish: As far as I can see my boat looks OK. I'm happy with it and the only thing to say is that the upholstery needed to be a bit more rugged for sea use. However, in the boats that I've just got (640SRs) the upholstery is much (a lot) better than on the 700RSR, I got 2 years ago. I need to see this boat you all went on.

10. Other comments: We feel that to drive this boat correctly, one needs to know how to drive racing boats correctly! May be Cookee (and I'm not joking) should have a go at it. Also you need a lot of time to get familiar with this type of boat, which is very sensitive to even the slightest change on trim, engine position, engine height, engine weight, prop size/pitch, weight distribution etc. The slightest change unbalances the boat.

I do not know if I covered everything but I'm full of salt, so I'm going for a wash.

I have tried to be as impartial as possible and if you feel that I have not (writing in a 2nd language no matter how well one commands is quite difficult you may appreciate) please feel free to make your comments and will try to clarify any points that you may have. If you also want to see any photos or a video of today’s test run, please let me know and will try to download them.

[Nick Hearne]

Manos nice write up you should go in for reporting!
Come on show us some photos!
Nick

[Manos]

Cheers Nick.

Will post a few later on this evening or early this am. I'm going out and have no time for it right now

Thanks again

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by Manos

I do not know if I covered everything but I'm full of salt, so I'm going for a wash.

So what your saying is that it's not only a crap ride, but it's a wet one as well!

[chrisallse]

I had a ride on a 700SR at southampton, One thing i noticed was that it was very critical to weight distribution, mainly i think because the tubes dont sit in the water. on the 640 you can sit anywhere and it dosnt upset it. I thought the Ride was OK but harder than the 640 although it was fairly calm at the time.

The most interesting thing was the comments from the demonstrator, cant remember his name but he knew what he was about. He said, that they, (Rib-x) much prefered the 640, it was much better in rough weather, turned better had a softer ride and was virtually impossible to upset it. I think this pretty well sums up the test in Rib International. obviously the Race influence makes for a more difficult boat to drive. it sounds as though Manos has set his up well and knows how to get the best from it, plus he has the right seats in his. I can understand where he is coming from as i used to have a very tweaked Elan S3 and none of my freinds could handle it. so perhaps given time and a correctley set up boat opinions might change.

Maybe Rib-X should set up and market the 700 SR as more of a race derived boat with equipment more suitable to that application.

[Manos]

Well thank you Chris (get a greeny then from me)

Praise for the set up should go to Falcon rather than to me, as they are the ones that they done the set up in SA

Whenever I got boats (RIBs or cruisers or even sailing yachts), I always asked and insisted that the builders do the set up so the possibility to get problems like the ones mentioned in previous posts is reduced. In my case (I think) that Falcon did it correctly and did a great job on my boat at least.

In the photos that I will post tomorrow and the video link I will send, you will all see how my boat is ballanced. We have taken it from many angles and you can derive your own conclusions from that.

NOTE for the Video link: The IT experts here can help me please. Will it work if I just put an mpg file on my site (where I have unlimited space to store data) and give you the link to download it? or I need to do something else? Any advise highly appreciated. Currently editing the video and is a pain

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by chrisallse

I had a ride on a 700SR at southampton, One thing i noticed was that it was very critical to weight distribution,

So your a bit of a fatty are you?

I've always been of the opinion that if a manufacturer can't "set the boat up" correctly for a show where it's going to be demonstrated, then the boat is more than likely a dog, and it's not possible to "set it up".

And i've always thought "set up" was a lovely turn of phrase, as though a race boats requirements is for it to be impossible to drive with ease!!!

If you get the chance have a ride in something like a Mark Pascoe rib, or a Revenger or similar. You won't find these running like a pig because they also get used for racing.

Quite simply, a good boat, is a good boat, is a good boat, and a dog is a dog!!!!!!!!!

[Manos]

Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

I've always been of the opinion that if a manufacturer can't "set the boat up" correctly for a show where it's going to be demonstrated, then the boat is more than likely a dog, and it's not possible to "set it up".

The manufacturer did not set up any boats (as you very well know ), only supplied the hull and the consoles and seats but not assembled.

Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

If you get the chance have a ride in something like a Mark Pascoe rib, or a Revenger or similar. You won't find these running like a pig because they also get used for racing.

I have and the SR9 is a great boat. But this one I went on was going slow (very slow at WOT not more than 40 knots) and behaved funny (going up and down like the engine it was fully trimmed up when it was full down) in choppy seas with twin Johnsons. The chap that has it in Greece didn't know what was wrong with it. After a couple of weeks, it transpired that the engines were not set up properly .... and when the problem was corrected it went like a bulit!

So now you can draw your conclusions and re-think

[chrisallse]

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt! ..


You should practice what you preach Dank.


What boat have you got then?

[Cookee]

Manos - I would like to add my own comments, I have never driven a Falcon, although I have driven many boats in the past, so I will have to go with your very extensive report on the boat - very good considering english is your second language!

Originally Posted by Manos

1. The problem with the boat leaning on the port side: Yes it does, BUT only at around 40 knots. Before 40 knots and up to 35-36 or so and also pass that point and at 43-45 knots it corrects its self and is on the straight again.

I would have to ask why - this is surely not normal with any hull?

2. Trimming: The boat is very (I MEAN VERY) responsive to trim. As I have said before. With full trim down the nose sticks in the water and is very obvious as the boat leans completely forward. At trim on 2/2.5 (on the Yam trim gauge) the nose comes up quite a lot and up to 4 the boat gains speed, revs go up and comes out of the water completely. At trim 4.5 the boat slows down and you get a noise from the prop. At trim near 4-4.2 if you hit any waves the boat waves up and down (is this the right expression?) we call it in Greece that it behaves like a dolphin, and the trim needs to come down again just a notch and this effect stops.

In the UK we call it porpoising but it is completely normal.

3. Turning: On a 380 deg turns and at about 30/32 knots with trim at 2-2.5 the boat turns without any problem and comes out of the turn with the same speed as when it went in the turn. On 380 deg turn and at about 47-50 knots with trim down to 1/1.5 the boat tends to slide just a tinny bit mid way and then you can feel the hull (with a small juddering not to the hull but to your body - if this is the right expression again) getting its grip again and carry on as normal. Again the boat comes out of the turn without having lost speed (or in some runs we did lost a couple of knots). There was no prop ventilation at any one point except when we tried a turn at WOT with trim mid way and the result was as you would expect.

The above depends on how tight the turn is - is it at full lock or what is comfortable?

5. Speeds: Cruising is comfortable to very comfortable (in this very nice and calm sea and smooth wind state conditions) at 33-35 knots on GPS, 3800 revs and trim at 2.5/3.00 on the Yam trim gauge. At WOT and at 5700 revs with two persons onboard, trim at 3.6-4.0 (this Yam trim gauge goes up and down for some reason but they say is normal) top speed on GPS was between 54-56knots. We made quite a few runs so we got the slowest and the fastest. We felt that with less weight on the boat it may have gone faster, but this is another matter.

In a calm sea any boat would be comfortable!

6.Safety: At no time we felt unsafe on the boat. I suppose this is because of the bucket type seats I have on it (driver, co-driver and aft bench are all bucket type). The boat felt fine. We felt that the seating arrangement you have described previously (not bucket type seats) is NOT A SAFE arrangement for this type of boat.

So if the Falcon or UK factory fit anything other than bucket seats you see the boat as being unsafe? Not a good advert for a leisure boat!

7. Throttle/Trim: As I said in previous posts again today we found that to handle the boat correctly one has to play constantly with the trim and the throttle. You cannot just let it go unattended (which I think was the case). We feel that this is a specialists boat (if I can use this expression) and not a boat for mainly recreational purposes (although I use it and I'm happy with that). We do not believe that it should be compared with those RIBs of recreational use. As we feel is comparing a F3 or F2 formula car with a normal car for the road.

If it isn't a boat for recreational purposes why was it being reviewed by a magazine? And why is it offered for sale in the UK as a leisure boat? My raceboat only requires any effort at all above 60 mph - surely even a specialists boat should have good handling at lower speeds?

9. Finish: As far as I can see my boat looks OK. I'm happy with it and the only thing to say is that the upholstery needed to be a bit more rugged for sea use. However, in the boats that I've just got (640SRs) the upholstery is much (a lot) better than on the 700RSR, I got 2 years ago. I need to see this boat you all went on.


10. Other comments: We feel that to drive this boat correctly, one needs to know how to drive racing boats correctly! May be Cookee (and I'm not joking) should have a go at it. Also you need a lot of time to get familiar with this type of boat, which is very sensitive to even the slightest change on trim, engine position, engine height, engine weight, prop size/pitch, weight distribution etc. The slightest change unbalances the boat.

I'm flattered Manos, and I would like to drive one to see for myself just how good/bad the boat is! Once again if the slightest change unbalances a boat should it be offered for sale to the general public?

All of the above comments are, of course in my humble opinion and I am not as widely experienced as some people on this forum, and I am relying mostly on comments on this thread as to the handling properties of this particular model - I believe the smaller model like Chrisalses boat to be a much better boat!

[Manos]

Cookee thanks for your very constructive comments.

I am not very experienced also compared to some (very few in fact) people in this forum. I just wrote what I saw when we took the boat out. I did a bit of driving but most was done by a mate of mine (not Greek but Italian) who is racing big catamarans in Saudi and he does this for a leaving! Quite lucrative job by the way You will see him in the photos and possibly you will recognise who he is. But till then is a secret. The reason I did this is because I take my family on the boat and when I heard people saying waht they said I just wanted to make double/tripple and as much as I could shure that the boat is A OK. It seems from what it traspired that is OK.

1. I don't know to be honest. But if it corrects it self I just think is OK. My friend didn't seem to think that it was a major, major problem. He just commented about it and past it over his head. I suppose that he may have seen worst staff so this didn't make him worried. May be is normal or not but I'm not a naval designer to know any better. So I just accept it.

2. OK I understand that. We were trying to figure out how to call it. We knew the Italian word for it and the Greek but not the English LOL

3. In both instances the 380 degrees turn was with full lock. On half lock there was no problem with the boat. We tried different things, full lock, half lock getting into the turn and half way full lock no problem again. Full lock getting into the turn and half way half lock again no problem. Wide turn no problem what so ever. Me sitting right forward, sitting aft and in front of the consol.

5. I agree. The weather here these days is very calm so there is no chance to get on waves and see that aspect.

6. May be I didn't express it right. With a 225bhp engine on it I cannot see how can it be safe not to have a bucket type seating arrangement. On a high speed turn or high speed take off or bump the co-driver will be hanging for dear life. If the boat does not have a handle for the co-driver to hold from somewhere (mine didn't have but I put one on) then I can imagine the co-driver to scream his head off. I would. Is much different if you had a 90bhp or 110 bhp on it but going over that I think (again my view as I look at it from the safety aspect of a 45 year old family man - half mad ) that you need to have bucket type seats on it. An example: Last year my family (4 in total inc me) and I went on a long 2 hour trip (about 50 miles distance one way) to an island across. While we were on our way the weather changed (very usual in Greece), wind picked up and we had 1-1.5 mtrs waves on starboard side. After re-trimming the boat and increasing our speed (from 22/24 to 28/30 knots) we jumped from one wave to the next without big bumps and we felt quite safe (even my 4 then year old daughter was not worried - mind you she's been on boats when she was just 7 months old inside her mother - who was sitting aft with my wife) and this was due to many factors but also to the fact that we had seats that could support your sides. It makes you feel safer. Is like you Cookee on the race boat. If you raced it with just a jockey or a bench seat with no sides you would feel unsafe (not because the boat is unsafe) is the feel factor (sitting higher up, no side support and that short of thing I think). I hope you can understand what I mean.

7. I think one should define recreational use. Say a young mad person (or middle aged like me ) can get on this boat and have fun safely. Can put his friends or young family on it and have fun too. This I call recreational use. Also, a race boat enthusiast can take the boat blast it and race it and have fun as well. But in my opinion the boat is not for the average family man who is using his boat once or twice or even 10 times a year and just wants to potter around, thinking that is THE Captain and from time to time increase the throttle for 3-4 seconds amongst kids screaming, wife or partner shouting just to satisfy his go fast wimp. I am not sarcastic here but this how I see it.

10. Well this is a thought! Certainly it should be marketed as a specialist RIB rather than a middle of the road average boat. Quite a few of these go fast RIBs in fact should be marketed in this way IM VERY HO. I ment what I said about you driving the boat and if you ever get the chance to get over to Greece you are very welcome to try mine.

[Manos]

For what ever this worth to all of you who saw the Falcon 700RSR at RIB EX and read the article by RIB Int'l just to say that the boat was also tested by the Greek FOUSKOTO KE JET mag (RIB & JET) in Greece last week. There were four persons testing the boat and 3 of them were F1 RIB racing pilots.
NOTE: At this point just to add the this magazine is co-operating very closely with RIB Int'l and they were not paid for any adds neither for doing the test. So what they found and are going to publish I want to believe that will be very objective
The preliminary results were very similar to my report above (hey I may know what I'm talking about and I'm not an expert ).
Their comments were that this boat is a FAST, SEAWORTHY boat NOT for the average Mr Captain .
The boat handles like a train in any type of cornering and at any speed, yes it does veer at port side at 38-40 knots (not much) but they did not find that this is a problem at all since the hull corrects it and you are never in any danger neither you feel that you are. They told us that other fast plaining hulls do the same thing.
Their speed radar showed a top speed with 175 Evinrude with normal prop, full load and 200 ltrs of fuel 47-49 knots (as soon as the article is published on the 20th June will copy abstracts from it and post good and/or bad ).
They added that you need to have experience to drive the boat and it should be marketed as a fast speedy RIB rather than the average cruising RIB.
Their advise was to take off all the paraphernalia like bench seats with these back rests, put bucket or bucket type benches on but lower down, straps and let the beast GO

Photos from the Falcon run will come next week. Too busy this week for any of that. Got to run is 35 deg C and just 9am (mini heat wave) and the beach is waiting.