RIBbing for the disabled...

redhed · 21 August 2011, 08:58

OK, I am guessing this is not a common question.

But - any advice?

On the bright side, the disabled person will just be a passenger. So it's just a question of getting her on, getting her off, and making sure she doesn't fall out. She can climb if well supported. She isn't good at holding on.

So, my plan was to chuck her in the RIB before launching, and stick her on a bench seat sandwiched between the tube and another person. Haul her out again after recovery.

Is there anything else I can do? (Other than make sure she has a DAMN good lifejacket...)

Poly · 21 August 2011, 09:50

redhed,

there was a thread some time back about a guy who was trying to fit wheelchair access to his rib. Redbay have also made an 11m cabin rib with full wheelchair access from pontoon to helm - but I guess that won't fit in your garage!

If she's not good at holding on - would you be happy with her finding and pulling the toggle on an auto lifejacket if the auto mechanism fails to fire - so consider something with permanent buoyancy?

In many ways what you describe is a bit like Ribbing with kids. The issue is making sure they stay where you left them! There are some threads on that too - but nothing that I recall which provided a perfect solution. I'm not convinced that some sort of "seat belt" is a totally crazy idea - the main argument against is "what if you capsize the boat" - but you've done something really wrong if you capsize a rib with vulnerable passengers on board.

There are different designs of bench around - and one with "arm rests"/"wraparound" sounds like it might be more secure for you.

willk · 21 August 2011, 11:21

Polwart is probably right about the wraparound bench seat. In a small RIB, the tubes are too low to provide outside support on a bench seat. If there was space, it should be possible to have a "booster seat" designed to drop onto the bench - that way you could have whatever security she needed and be able to remove it when she wasn't onboard.

Not knowing the individual makes it hard to know, but I'm sure you're aware that launch and particularly recovery can be high tension moments and sometimes require quick and decisive actions. There can be a lot of banging, shouting and revving. Consider how your passenger will cope with this. Personally, it gives me the willies!

Redhed - does He-red have a passion for Land Rovers, by any chance? "Older" forum users will know why I ask...

redhed · 22 August 2011, 09:48

Um, no, afaik He-red has no interest in Landys. Unless he has been keeping a guilty secret quiet for the last fourteen years. Why do you ask?

The passenger (DD1 fwiw) will regard any banging, shouting and revving as highly entertaining. She will probably join in. You should see her at the fireworks.

Re: wraparound seats - I've noticed that various manufacturers seem to re-use the same seat designs. Does that mean that it might be possible to ask them to provide a wraparound bench where one isn't listed as an option? Or would it be a retrofit?

Polwart - absolutely agree re: the old-style jacket, my shopping list has automatic ones for everyone else and a Mae West for DD1.

The seatbelt issue is a tough one. I'm fairly certain I could make one which would self-open in a capsize. In theory. (Velcro lap belt with weight attached to tab at end of velcro) The issue is it would be hard to test, as . I suppose I could get a plank, something the weight of DD1, the velcro contraption and a swimming pool. But the lifeguard might raise reasonable objections...

Poly · 22 August 2011, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhed

Does that mean that it might be possible to ask them to provide a wraparound bench where one isn't listed as an option? Or would it be a retrofit?

it will depend on the manufacturer. Some will fit almost anything you want (at a price) and others are pretty much "list items only". You may find them slightly more flexible in your circumstances.

Quote:

The seatbelt issue is a tough one. I'm fairly certain I could make one which would self-open in a capsize. In theory. (Velcro lap belt with weight attached to tab at end of velcro) The issue is it would be hard to test, as . I suppose I could get a plank, something the weight of DD1, the velcro contraption and a swimming pool. But the lifeguard might raise reasonable objections...

Mmm... not sure? if the velcro is easy enough to release with weighted end (without the weight being a hazard in normal operation) then I think it might not be strong enough to hold a person on a bouncy boat. You might find a cooperative pool for testing provided you don't use DD1 as the weight or a dirty old scaffolding plank! If you can't find a suitable pool and really want to test it then perhaps a call to the RNLI at Poole - indeed they might even have some suggestions on how best to do it.

However I'll go back to my earlier statement - if you capsize a RIB you were either out in stupid conditions (not a place I would be taking someone who can't hold on properly) or driving like an idiot (or possibly both). The risk that a "vulnerable" passenger (whether that is a child or disabled person or older person) falls overboard in e.g. a sharp turn is much higher in my opinion and so it would be reasonable to me to secure the passenger for that relatively likely scenario than to leave them unsecured because of a tiny risk that you may capsize and then they may not be able to release themselves.

Nos4r2 · 22 August 2011, 19:11

Hammar Hydrostatic Release System for Liferafts

Any use?

Poly · 22 August 2011, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Hammar Hydrostatic Release System for Liferafts

Any use?

that was my initial thinking but as far as I can see they trigger at 4m of water depth. That means they are essentially useless for freeing a passenger in an upturned but floating rib.

willk · 22 August 2011, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhed

Um, no, afaik He-red has no interest in Landys. Unless he has been keeping a guilty secret quiet for the last fourteen years. Why do you ask?

Because your posts remind me a lot of those of "Knot Yet"- which is a good thing. "Knot Yet 2" was a keen Land Rover fan and a crap ribster

Knot Yet (Knotty/Jean) brought a certain something to the Forum. Civility perhaps - I miss her input...

redhed · 22 August 2011, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

that was my initial thinking but as far as I can see they trigger at 4m of water depth. That means they are essentially useless for freeing a passenger in an upturned but floating rib.

Wot Pol said. And misusing a lifejacket auto-inflate won't work either because the passenger will effectively be floating (albeit restrained) just under the surface stuck under the RIB so the "float" won't be able to travel far enough to release anything. Which was why I was going for the simple weight option. Well, that and the lack of moving parts to break down.

Pol - the only way the velcro plan would work is if it's an incredibly big velcro overlap. DD1 has a similar fixing on a lap belt on a chair she has; the velcro part is 30cm by 4cm on each side; it's effectively a seatbelt sandwich with velcro in the middle. Obviously I can undo it v easily with one hand if I lift one end. But if I were to do it up all along its length and then try to pull up on it as if the person were being bounced around - I'm just not strong enough. Not if I stand on the seat, hold it with both hands and put my back into it. The bolts holding it on would tear out of the seat first. If you get a long enough bit of velcro, it's much much stronger laterally. The thing concerning me is how to attach the weight so it goes straight down without wrapping itself around her legs first.

Will contact RNLI, definitely.

willk · 22 August 2011, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhed

Pol - the only way the velcro plan would work is if it's an incredibly big velcro overlap.

I made a pool-use weight belt like this for myself once - it had very similar active velcro areas and worked very well. It could be released with a finger pinch but held many pounds of weights in place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by redhed

The thing concerning me is how to attach the weight so it goes straight down without wrapping itself around her legs first..

Place it in an open topped pouch on the BCD?

ShinyShoe · 22 August 2011, 21:40

Polwart - I agree with your sentiment - you really should try and keep the rib with the wet side in the water when you have vulnerable passengers on board. BUT

1. If someone goes for a swim from the boat they are not certain to die

2. If you strap someone onto the rib and turn it upside down they might well be certain to die...

So you really need to take the probability that someone will go for a swim AND be left permenantly harmed / dead and contrast that to probability of parking your boat upside down.

Now... go to maib site and look for 6/2008 - the one where the army overturned a dory with kids on board... So people do make wrong decisions. In that case they realised the condititions were not what they expected and had turned back but screwed it up...

Then go look at Plas Meni's report on maib...

If you drive a boat like you drive your car (yes I can still recall your boat coming past your car on the way home from Loch Lomond!) I'd be reluctant to lock my child to the seat...

Siochair · 22 August 2011, 22:29

Another concern about using a weight is what will it be doing during the boats inversion? The last thing your passenger will want is to be bashed about by a free flying weight before being dunked.

redhed · 22 August 2011, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siochair

Another concern about using a weight is what will it be doing during the boats inversion? The last thing your passenger will want is to be bashed about by a free flying weight before being dunked.

Absolutely. I sort of see it, on a short coiled line, in a small bucket. Said bucket being fixed down so nothing comes out unless the boat is upside-down. But I haven't completely convinced myself this is going to work yet. I'm thinking aloud - well online - really.

Shiny - the problem is I have to weigh up the high risks of a restraint if the boat flips, however unlikely that is, against the less serious but constant risk that this unrestrained passenger will just slip quietly over the side due to overactive curiosity, unless someone keeps one hand on her at all times. I guess the Health And Safety view would be that she fails a risk assessment for RIBbing. But if I hear "she can't have fun because she's disabled", then I tend to say "sod that" and keep looking for ways round it.

Poly · 22 August 2011, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

1. If someone goes for a swim from the boat they are not certain to die

its not going for "a swim" its falling overboard at speed. cold shock, head impact, prop collision, hypothermia, getting "lost" (if it takes you 30 seconds to spot someone go overboard at 30 knots you are half a mile away - try spotting a person at 0.5 NM in anything less than ideal conditions, shouting is ineffective at 30 knots over engine and wind noise - so even if spotted going over it could take that long to alert the skipper). The risks of death from falling overboard are not insignificant.

I don't know what the OP's DD's disabilities entail but if she is liable to go "wandering" even when told not to - then her risk of going overboard is higher than a typical passenger and a belt would reduce that. Of course an able bodied adult next to her on a bench may achieve something similar - but even with a 3 yr old that creates complaints about independence and gets tiring on a long cruise.

Quote:

2. If you strap someone onto the rib and turn it upside down they might well be certain to die...

nice oxymoron to achieve the more emotive language! Its not certain you die in that circumstance either. If the occupant can release themselves, if the other crew members can release them. Even if it were certain the anecdotal evidence from here is that capsizes of ribs being used in normal family cruising circumstances are extremely rare (in fact I can't recall any) MOBs are also rare but those passengers are generally good at holding on and balancing - even then there have been one or two!

Quote:

Now... go to maib site and look for 6/2008 - the one where the army overturned a dory with kids on board... So people do make wrong decisions. In that case they realised the condititions were not what they expected and had turned back but screwed it up...

probably wouldn't have happened if they had used a RIB! Reduced risk if they had loaded the boat better and deployed the trunks to get rid of the water. Whilst no one goes out expecting/planning to capsize - if the conditions are marginal you don't go with those who would not be able to help themselves. Many people here have different limits for when they will go out themselves/friends and when they will take their kids and the same logic applies here. Likewise how hard they will push their boat.

Quote:

Then go look at Plas Meni's report on maib...

This is another case which doesn't fit with a family cruise model. They might have been reasonable for able bodied teenagers but again I don't think many people would take young kids or mobility restricted adults in difficult conditions.

Quote:

If you drive a boat like you drive your car (yes I can still recall your boat coming past your car on the way home from Loch Lomond!) I'd be reluctant to lock my child to the seat...

your memory is clearly flawed since the trailer didn't overtake the car - however I do drive my boat the way I drive my car - if there is someone I care about "on board" I show extra care

Siochair · 23 August 2011, 00:02

What about having them "tethered" to a fellow passenger, having the tether short enough to ensure that they do not fall out of the boat - or at least not alone!

Poly · 23 August 2011, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siochair

What about having them "tethered" to a fellow passenger, having the tether short enough to ensure that they do not fall out of the boat - or at least not alone!

Siochair thats not a bad suggestion. If the fear is going overboard unnoticed there are option which have been discussed here before similar to kill cords that show a light / buzzer to the skipper.

SPR · 23 August 2011, 00:19

Best advice contact RYA sailability

Powerboating | RYA Sailability | Programmes | RYA

they will advise what is best pratice....

S.

Siochair · 23 August 2011, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

Siochair thats not a bad suggestion. If the fear is going overboard unnoticed there are option which have been discussed here before similar to kill cords that show a light / buzzer to the skipper.

There is this system from NASA but I'm not sure if the OP wants to spend this much. http://www.nasamarine.com/proddetail.php?prod=Mobi

Poly · 23 August 2011, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siochair

There is this system from NASA but I'm not sure if the OP wants to spend this much. http://www.nasamarine.com/proddetail.php?prod=Mobi

Ah no - there have been "diy" solutions suggested here which would be about £30 to kit a boat for 3 crew!

Siochair · 23 August 2011, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

Ah no - there have been "diy" solutions suggested here which would be about £30 to kit a boat for 3 crew!

£30 quid does seem to be ever so slightly more reasonable that the cost for the Nasa system