RNLI - getting greedy?

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Certainly for that money someone needs to be taking a look at whether we need all those AWBs with the type of shout they usually get these days, and the increased use of Helo's for significantly offshore stuff etc, as well as the increased range and capability of the Atlantic 85s over the original 21s.

All RNLI stations and boats have what is called a Coastal revue every 5 years or so that evaluate each station and what type of boat or other life saving means can or cannot be be utilised ,eg hovercraft /lifeguards.
the revue is usually formed from existing paid staff rnli inspecters ect and the institutions committe of management still a volountry role as far as i am aware and .

if a station needs to be closed for operational reasons then it will close ,
eg Teesmouth AWL had a new lifeboat station built at a cost of £400,000 only to close 18 months later ,
the public outcry that followed and investigation also involving local mps and the like came to nothing as well as the station been located on the 3rd buisiest port in the uk ,
,reason ,, Hartlepoole 4 miles to the north had a new faster Awl boat and Redcar had an atlantic 75 ,,3 miles down the coast ,
The institutions view on things are that if we are taking money from joe public it has to be spent wisely and what it is given for ,,Saving of life at sea ,
Teesmouth building has no operational lifeboat as such but is used now for training of lifegurds and flood rescue teams so they are covered by that .nothings to say that in the future it could be reinstated if the need arises

on the other hand new stations may be formed if there has been an increase loss of life ,,a brand new station has just been formed in scotland this month ,
Thames lifeboats came to fruition after the Marchoness/Bowbell incident when 55 youngsters lost their lives .
with the regards on maintainence about 6 months ago it was decided that the regular maintainence /refits can now be extended to a much longer time scale say every 3 years to 5 years owing to improved design and materials .


regards to stations full/part time paid mechanics boats ,engines and equipment have now become more complex than the double ended 8 knot boats of 20 years ago .
most mechanics started out volounteering as crew before taking up the post in most cases.


if anyones intrested have a look at the jobs section for both voluntry and paid staff .

one miff that i have is the statement ,,the rnli,,,, IS The charity ,,that saves lives at sea ,
,well theres a good few other indipendent lifeboat/rescue boats up and down our coast doing the same thing and for them its hand to mouth regards funding .

lastly dont give grief to the old guy stood with the collecting bucket on lifeboat day in the pouring rain ,,hes a volounteer and not a paid clipboard sales Droid.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by biffer

A couple of years back I tried to volunteer my services and myself. They basically said we've got enough people we just want your money.
When I pointed out what I did for a living and my experience The words were blimey you are over qualified. Needless to say I don't do a lot for them. We have inshore rescue down here

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They didn't want me a few years back either - their loss!

[biffer]

Originally Posted by Cookee

They didn't want me a few years back either - their loss!

It was almost like I'd be a threat to someone. As you said. John There loss

sent from a remote device

[Pikey Dave]

Regardless of how much they raise, cost, spend, if you're in the deep sh1t & you see one coming over the next wave, it's priceless. Been there, done that! I'll keep paying my subs. If it was government funded e.g. coast guard, they'd be cut down to the bone by now & we'd all be bitching about the lack of service. I'd rather have a voluntary service that is provided regardless of cost, than some half assed tax funded outfit on a shoestring. If you don't like it, don't contribute, but just bear that in mind when you need 'em.

[Poly]

M Chappelow - thanks for clarifying how they decide which stations to open or close. I had noticed their recent new station at Leverburgh - theres certainly not much other help around there if you find yourself in a creek and paddleless. I'm surprised that there has been an increase in casualties in the area - but I suppose it may also be that there are fewer fishing boats / navy ships / commercial vessels that might step in to fill the void there.

Clearly a lack of joined up thinking going on if you spend nearly 1/2 million on a new station which is very close two others and then decide to review its need soon after. Common sense would have said to bring the review forward. Presumably the two flanking stations have been there for some time.

I don't envy the committee's task of reviewing the stations though - because deciding to close a lifeboat station is always going to be controversial and emotionally difficult; sometimes its easier to make the "right" decision if you have commercial or public sector budget cuts to justify it (blame the politician / board / economy etc). When availability of funding is not the critical factor it must be even harder to decide to close facilities.

Originally Posted by JK

On the other hand providing it brings in more extra money than it loses it will probably be judged as a success.

unfortunately whilst they can probably estimate from the results how many Willks simply cancel because of their cheek and ensure the "rise in charge" offsets that downside they may never have any idea how many Willks decide not to include them in their enormous Will when the time comes. When Willk leaves his millions to the Cat and Wilfish home instead they will never know.

[tony t]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Regardless of how much they raise, cost, spend, if you're in the deep sh1t & you see one coming over the next wave, it's priceless. Been there, done that! I'll keep paying my subs. If it was government funded e.g. coast guard, they'd be cut down to the bone by now & we'd all be bitching about the lack of service. I'd rather have a voluntary service that is provided regardless of cost, than some half assed tax funded outfit on a shoestring. If you don't like it, don't contribute, but just bear that in mind when you need 'em.

Well said that man

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[chewy]

Originally Posted by biffer

It was almost like I'd be a threat to someone. As you said. John There loss

sent from a remote device

Originally Posted by Cookee

They didn't want me a few years back either - their loss!

Whilst it may seem ignorant that they didn't want your help the RNLI has its own maintenance schedule in place and mechanics on each station.
If a boat is damaged and not fit for service you usually have another one on station within 24hrs. The damaged ILB would then go to Cowes to be repaired.
Nobodies loss really.

[m chappelow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHLjf...eature=related

short clip showing just some of the things station mechanics get up to ,lets face it if it break down 100miles out at sea in a f10 who you gonna call the RAC ,AA,

as phil (chewy )says things that cannot be bent back or repaired by the,, on station mechanic it will go out of service and a replacement part sent out from a divisional base (think theres 6 covering the uk) within 15 mins of reciving the order ,anything electrical /electronics will be replaced and repaired later by the electronics engineer at that base ,
if its an outboard it will be sent out within 15mins plus travel time then fitted at station,

with the new generation boats a lot of things are now able to cross fit different classes of boats and i think the new shannon class has the same scania engines as it launch tractor cutting down on carrying loads of spares for a vast array of different equipment .
The S,I,M,system saves crew members leaving or swapping seats when underway to undertake different tasks that may lead to injury at 25 knots in a rough sea eg.navigating ,radio,engine monitering,radar,depth,steering ,

[willk]

Just in case there would be an excess upwelling of grumpiness on here on account of me, here's two clips of my local outfits at work and play to cheer yiz up:

The Arranmore Lifeboat Myrtle Maud and Charlie X-Ray Sierra - the ICG S61.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRKcOPIe82M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cApaiW4XgA

[Crusher]

WOW £2.7M for a Tamar!!

That definitely sounds like a lot of money to me.
You can buy lots of fibreglass, a few electronics and a couple of engines for that!!

Do they actually make these boats themselves? And this cost is materials + labour?or do they truly "buy" from a supplier??

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[chewy]

Originally Posted by Crusher

WOW £2.7M for a Tamar!!

That definitely sounds like a lot of money to me.
You can buy lots of fibreglass, a few electronics and a couple of engines for that!!

Do they actually make these boats themselves? And this cost is materials + labour?or do they truly "buy" from a supplier??

Sent from my iPhone using Rib.net

From what I gather the RNLI has a design brief, various boats are tested, a prototype is made and tested/developed from there, the FCB1 was scrapped as the prototype wasn't deemed suitable.
The cost is for a complete running boat, when you consider parts of a Severns hull are 5" thick you can see where "some" of the money goes, regards the rest I've already expressed my opinion.

[mister p]

Paying someone £40k a year to get £41k which wouldn't have been got, makes sense? No loss and £1k to the RNLI.
Get a hundred of these guys.
If it's sourcing funds that would otherwise not be realised and they pay for themselves then I don't see the issue.
Unless they alienate existing supporters.
And if that's the case then there is a disconnect which smacks of management subcontracting to do their own respective jobs, the costs of which are lost in an "overheads and costs" haemorrhage, covered by the tax payers, smacks of playing the coorporate game ............so where's the charity?
Management v grass roots

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

I have heard that something like 20% is spent on marketing and fundraising projects....is this true and if so, how is the rest spent?

Look at this this way,if someone offered you an investment at a 500% return i.e spend 20p & get a pound back would you take it? That sounds like sound financial management to me.

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

The reason for my curiosity is that, after reading the last information i recieved from the French SNSM i noticed it mentioned there are now 232 operational stations in France.
A quick Wiki search revealed that the RNLI has only 235 operational stations, a mere 3 more than their French conterpart.

So the question is, why does the RNLI need a budget of 147 million (also from Wikipedia) when a quick hop 80 or so miles south across the channel reveals a similar operation but running on one seventh of what the RNLI has at its disposal?

My experience of SNSM, particularly on the Normandy coast is that the boats are invariably moored afloat in "locked" harbours, so they are out of action +/- 3hrs LW, the RNLI would have built a bespoke boat house & slip outside of the harbour to ensure that they are available 24/7. The SNSM boats are generally much smaller & dare I say "Light" duty.

[biffer]

Originally Posted by chewy

Whilst it may seem ignorant that they didn't want your help the RNLI has its own maintenance schedule in place and mechanics on each station.
If a boat is damaged and not fit for service you usually have another one on station within 24hrs. The damaged ILB would then go to Cowes to be repaired.
Nobodies loss really.

Oh well that doesn't make it sound as bad next time I'm at home which is 300 yds from there factory I'll remember they have all they need

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[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by biffer

Oh well that doesn't make it sound as bad next time I'm at home which is 300 yds from there factory I'll remember they have all they need

sent from a remote device

Rnli took over the old greens factory at lymington when it was in difficultys leaving a number of part built tamar class lifeboats as no other company could build to the exacting standards in the Uk the Rnli took it over and now it known as sar composites ,
At least any profits go back to the Rnli and the hull lifespan has been increased to 55 years from the previous 25

[simonnud]

Originally Posted by mister p

Paying someone £40k a year to get £41k which wouldn't have been got, makes sense? No loss and £1k to the RNLI.
Get a hundred of these guys.
If it's sourcing funds that would otherwise not be realised and they pay for themselves then I don't see the issue.
Unless they alienate existing supporters.
And if that's the case then there is a disconnect which smacks of management subcontracting to do their own respective jobs, the costs of which are lost in an "overheads and costs" haemorrhage, covered by the tax payers, smacks of playing the coorporate game ............so where's the charity?
Management v grass roots

Very well said.

Just to try and clear up a couple of points.

The coastal review is every 5 years or there about and it looks into what is in your area (mariners, Docks, beaches ) etc and what assets are in the area Lifeboats tugs etc. it also looks at how long it will take a 25 knot ( all ALB will be 25 knot boats) to get to any point along the cost. (I think but could be wrong is that they aim to get a AWB to any point along the coast and up to 3miles out within 30 mins)

The mechanics on station have a very difficult job because you can't just take apart the engines and then put it back what happens if the pager goes off the engines have to be serviced and maintained with the thought that the pagers can go off any moment.

The RNLI now build their own boats at SAR composites in Lymington this came about because Green Marine who was building the Lifeboats was for sale and the RNLI was worried that the new owners would not be able to build the boats to the same standard so they bought half of the company and took on a lot of their staff (you will have to look up why Green marine where so good)
so all boats (including ILBs) are build by SAR comp. the ILB is fitted out at Cowes by the RNLI and I am un shore where the AWBs are fitted out but know the new Shannon is being fitted out at Berthon (lymington)

The support from the RNLI when you break something is truly astonishing in the 10 years I have been at station we have had the boat none operational once (due to electrical problems which could not be fixed on station) and this was from 11pm to 9am when a replacement boat was delivered.

The support for the crew is also great (one of the reasons Cowes became RNLI) if the crew do hurt themselves the RNLI will be there to support you. You are offered counselling if you have a perticuly nasty job like pealing someone from the bottom of a cliff or picking body’s out of the water.

All this cost money and a lot of it I am not saying they get it right all the time as I said in my last post but when you list everything they do it is no wonder they spend a lot.

You are right in saying the crews have a good time and can quit at any time. every station is different but I can't imagine what it would be like not to be part of it, there really is no better feeling that knowing you have made a difference to someone’s life

You can give straight to a station but I have been told that it is allocated to our station but goes into the big pot (I could be wrong)

I will leave you with a letter we got this year.

Hello,
It was early last Sunday morning that Dale the LYH night watchman heard my cries for help, found me in the water and called out the RNLI as he couldn’t lift me out of the water on his own.
The crew turned up in record time and saved my life that Sunday morning. I was told by the consultant in Southampton hospital A&E that it was more than touch and go and that it was perhaps seconds rather than minutes that made all the difference.
So I want to say as big a THANK YOU as I can.
From me, my children Roger(8) and Matthew (10) and my wife Sue.
You will be glad to know that I have recovered swiftly from my injuries thanks to expert NHS medical care and hope to be back at work next week.
We live in Yateley near Camberley and are we are planning on coming down on October the 30th for the Lymington RNLI Christmas Card sale and will be buying as many Christmas cards and presents as we can.
If any of the crew that rescued me are there on the day – then of course I would like to say thank you to them in person.
Otherwise once again – please pass on my sincere and unending gratitude to the team who helped rescue me that morning.
Everyone from the people who keep the inshore craft ready at all times, to the partners of the crew who bravely support them, to the crew themselves for their selfless devotion in saving others in distress and of course to all the fund raisers in the shop.

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

the hull lifespan has been increased to 55 years from the previous 25

My crystal ball is cloudy today...Haven't really got my head around whether propulsion and SAR's technologies of 30yrs hence (say) would be best used, or even compatible with, a 30yr old hull, and for another 25yrs.

[ribrunt]

Firstly - disclosure. RNLI offshore member AND volunteer B-class helm

The RNLI no longer employs chuggers. Big PR backlash so they stopped. In other words, anyone you see with a bucket is a volunteer too.

Build quality - the RNLI have tried commercial craft more than once. Last time in service - Thames E-class (due to speed of set up). They were dogs, and spent more time off service than on. A full-RNLI treatment refit/upgrade improved things, but they now need replacement after a very busy 10 year life.
They also trialled (extensively) commercial hull shapes for the Shannon class. This included dynamometer trials on full size hulls, and extensive 1/6 scale model trials. It must be remembered that lifeboats are built to do things most commercial boats, whether ALB or ILB, are not designed to do.

For example, ALB & ILBs must be capable of being launched by crane, trolley, DO-DO, slipway or other means! I hear Chewy's comments, but I'm certainly damn glad that my ILB has a righting bag and frame, water ballast, inversion proofed engines, waterproof VHF, sea anchor and all the other things to keep me safe and bring ME back to my wife & kids. Price me an equivalent spec'd commercial 7.5/8.5m boat and I think you'll find there is not that much difference in the cost.

Very few stations that I know of have a waiting list for these "rewarding" crew positions .... ? Most are struggling to maintain daytime cover. Yes we have the best of kit - and that comes from a legacy of Fraserburgh, Longhope, Penlee and other tragic days in our history. This kit has prevented further losses - Wexford ILB as an example. The position is morally rewarding and lets, face it, mostly fun - but that comes at a price (which we and our families are all willing to pay) of training, commitment, disruption and occassionaly, danger.


When one looks at the Annual report, as someone helpfully posted, much of the hype (richest charity, big salaries and all that) falls away. Can they improve on things? Absolutely. Are they? Actually, yes. They are stripping costs (£MM) out of operations with a LEAN project, which includes f/t headcount. As someone mentioned, extended boat service lives. Condition-based maintenance (as opposed to scheduled PM). Common parts, not just across launch/boat (e.g. Shannon) but across classes - SIMS will be standard on all Tamars and Shannons, and the same plotter is going into all ALBs and ILBs over time.

The new(ish) CEO, Paul Boissier, has a real focus on "alternative" volunteering too - i.e. corporate and other type services, not just buckets & lifejackets. Maybe those who offered their services in the past might be convinced to do so again?


So, back to where we started - is it a bad idea for a charity to ask for more money from those already donating? No. Does it sound like the tone/attitude needs to change? Absolutely. Just maybe someone from Poole will see this and take note....

[willk]

Originally Posted by ribrunt

So, back to where we started - is it a bad idea for a charity to ask for more money from those already donating? No. Does it sound like the tone/attitude needs to change? Absolutely. Just maybe someone from Poole will see this and take note....

That's pretty much what I think too...

[wiLlfish]

Originally Posted by willk

That's pretty much what I think too...

noww luk wot yewve startid

yoov gott rlni nobburs orl ova de cuntry upp inn arrms cuz thay fink noboddy luvs dem

yoov gott biff an cukee fealin unlovid cuz noe boddy wonts dem. (pare ov wankirs enywaiy).

yoov got poowart inn ful investigativ journo mowde

yoov got dat chewee nobbur de sakk forr bein a trayter an summ nobbur admittin too doin a orrigarmi demmo for de WI (WTF)

YORR A BADD BADD MANN