rough weather advice

[SPR]

Whitbay Accident Report from MAIB:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/LastCall.pdf

RIB Capsize Report from MAIB (Wales)

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...ib6_Report.pdf

Rigid Raider Army Cadet Report (Scotland) from MAIB:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/...ding_craft.cfm

These might not 100% equates to RIB's, but all involved Rough Weather and has learning points.

I don't know if these docs have been posted before.

S.

[cuttlefish]

it is not certain that you are going to be better off with a bigger boat or even a displacement vessel. In 1998, for example, there was a case of a similar tragedy, his time, with a 46 foot Yacht, again in Tyneside.

It is a long tale, and I'll just post the last bit, after they had vetured just out side the port to find rough seas:

Making almost no headway in the dying wind and heavy swell, the
wallowing motion was making some of the guests began to be seasick. It was no longer a fun occasion and course was shaped for the harbour entrance, the jib handed and the main was reefed again. She began her homeward passage under power. The skipper knew that low water was predicted shortly after 1500, and with only two hours left of the outgoing
stream still to run, believed the worst of the sea conditions would be over by the time he reached the entrance. He had no doubts that returning would be straightforward, and did not anticipate rough conditions. Nobody was told to wear lifejackets or harnesses and clip on.
The skipper furled the main as She headed back towards the harbour entrance and clipped himself on while doing so.
Back in the cockpit, and when about a mile from the harbour entrance, he called Tyne Harbour Radio and reported his position. He then asked, "Is it all right to come on in, and up to the marina?"
The reply was, "Yes, you are all clear." He headed for the harbour entrance.
As he approached it was obvious waves were breaking over the piers and the two lighthouses marking the seaward ends but, apart from this, the actual conditions could not be seen from the low height of eye in the cockpit until they were much closer. Once again the sea surface was calm.
The skipper had little inkling, or foreboding of trouble, but was aware his full attention would be necessary to bring the yacht into harbour. The crew was briefed and one of them, known to have dinghy sailing experience, was given instructions for handling the main sheet. She was under full control with minimal sail set, and those onboard were happy that all was well.
Apart from the skipper who was steering and standing abaft the wheel, nearly everyone else was sitting in the cockpit. At least one other was also standing and another was filming events with a video camera. Everyone had begun to enjoy the experience.
As the yacht entered the river and passed between the pier ends it became obvious the seas were much heavier than expected. Once inside, the skipper, given the following seas, was giving his full attention to steering. The time was shortly before 1300.
When about 2-3 cables inside the entrance, those on board looked astern and saw large waves beginning to build. They began to break, and one of these lifted the stern so much that the yacht adopted a steep bow down angle as she slid down its face. With the bow now digging in, her
forward movement was arrested and she virtually pitchpoled. Almost immediately she twisted to port and was knocked down to starboard.
She went over to about 120°, remained there for an indeterminate number of seconds and then came upright. The engine was still running. It was a difficult moment; the skipper had been pressed so hard against the wheel by the force of the water that he had bent the spokes of the wheel and he found he couldn't steer. He had also lost his glasses and couldn't see properly for a few moments. At the same time it became very obvious that three people had been swept overboard.
The yacht had, in the meantime, been turned through 180° and was heading seawards once again.
One of the victims was seen floating face down very shortly afterwards. While attempting to carry out the rescue, and with one of the victims holding on to a deployed lifesling, the yacht was hit by
another wave that pushed her well over to starboard. She recovered a second time and the engine was still running, but the victim at the end of the lifesling had not been able to put it on and had let go. Together with the other two, he was now being swept out to sea.
Assistance, however, soon came with the prompt arrival of the Tynemouth lifeboat. Although all three victims were recovered only one survived; the other two died from drowning. None of those washed overboard were wearing lifejackets.
Some time later the skipper was arrested on a manslaughter charge and for failing to register a vessel under the Merchant Shipping Act.

I post these stories, not because I am ghoulish or take pleasure in them, but I believe there are important lessons to be learned.

[chewy]

Originally Posted by SPR

Whitbay Accident Report from MAIB:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/LastCall.pdf

RIB Capsize Report from MAIB (Wales)

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...ib6_Report.pdf

Rigid Raider Army Cadet Report (Scotland) from MAIB:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/...ding_craft.cfm

These might not 100% equates to RIB's, but all involved Rough Weather and has learning points.

I don't know if these docs have been posted before.

S.

With regards to the Whitby one conditions were very bad and the Lifeboat crew called the Last Call on VHF to tell them not to leave harbour. I believe the crew were getting kitted up before the accident had even happened as they knew what would happen if the Last Call left Harbour.

If you look at the size of Last Call and the photo of the Lifeboat leaving the harbour you can see how bad it was.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by rupert

Talking of Whitby reminds me of that tragic accident (23rd Nov., 2007), when 3 people died after their cabin cruiser overturned in atrocious conditions at the mouth of Whitby Harbour at around midday.
A force eight gale and massive waves were pounding the piers and area just outside the harbour at the time and despite the heroic efforts of the lifeboat crew - and an RAF Sea King helicopter crew - the trio could not be saved in the treacherous conditions.
At the time, the RNLI lifeboat crew said they saw the boat attempting to leave the harbour and tried to contact it via radio to warn the occupants not to go to sea.
Whitby’s all-weather lifeboat George and Mary Webb was launched, but in minutes the cabin cruiser was seen to capsize.

I don't suppose they would have had much more chance in a rib, even with more sea experience.

Very sad.

I disagree slightly - if you look at the pictures in the MAIB report you will see photos of the boat just before it capsizes.

Yes they were very bad conditions but it was a combination of driver error and a totally unsuitable boat. Something like an Orkney pilot house 24 would have had a much better chance.

RIBs will take far more of a pounding than any Bayliner. It really is suprising just how poor some of these typical pleasure craft are in rough water.

Here is a video of the sort of conditions a RIB can handle - truly frightening.

50kt winds and 40' waves - the winds had been as much as 80kts prior to launch!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f7t5...eature=channel

You need to watch it until about 1/2 way to really see what is going on.

[cuttlefish]

Yes, an immense difference in size between the lifeboat and Last Call, and between the designs, etc.

Nevertheless, Last Call was:
A GRP construction, 7.34m LOA, 2,397 Kg with a 220HP - 5.0L Mercruiser Alpha 1 petrol sterndrive. Not exactly a dinghy. Many ribs on this site are smaller than Last Call.

Of course, she shouldn't have been out in those conditions.

[cuttlefish]

That's why I am looking for a rib.

[chewy]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Something like an Orkney pilot house 24 would have had a much better chance.

No it wouldn't, have you seen the photos of the Trent leaving the harbour.

[wavelength]

in a good rib you are helming a competent, agile, and manouverable planing hull that will cope with a lot. Dragging stuff behind you is arguably good advice in a displacement yacht or whatever but in a rib you are asking for trouble as you comprimise the agility of the boat, and invite a propeller to be fouled with rope when driving around breaking waves. Trim down going into a sea and up going with it. It needs some bottle and experience to put sufficient power on to get the trim effect from the engine, esp heading into a sea. It also needs a boat with a proper transom angle that allows sufficient down trim-and they don't all have that. We have put crew on other ribs at sea when the owners had had enough and one in particular did not have enough down trim to cope with the conditions properly. Pretty rib but crap in a head sea!

[Jon.esp]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

i know one boater that sometimes tows an old traffic cone [ pointy bit first] when it gets rough

Originally Posted by wavelength

in a good rib you are helming a competent, agile, and manouverable planing hull that will cope with a lot. Dragging stuff behind you is arguably good advice in a displacement yacht or whatever but in a rib you are asking for trouble as you comprimise the agility of the boat, and invite a propeller to be fouled with rope when driving around breaking waves.

I understand the arguments for and against trailing warps and was surprised to hear of it used in something like a rib. I would interested to hear if anyone else had used such a technique and would like to know how they got on.

Or is the chap with the traffic cone the only one out there.

Jon

[neilda]

Originally Posted by rupert

Although all three victims were recovered only one survived; the other two died from drowning. None of those washed overboard were wearing lifejackets.

Lifejackets....

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by chewy

No it wouldn't, have you seen the photos of the Trent leaving the harbour.

It does seem worse right at the harbour mouth but I suspect the lifeboat was giving it some welly hence the impressive spray. I have truly been out in as bad - in our area those conditions are quite common.

And if you watch the video I posted you will see it is far worse again and the RIB type boat was coping very well.

[chewy]

At Whitby the tide rushes past the harbour mouth which can make it dodgy, it also has pier extensions so you have water trying to get in the harbour as well as water trying to get back in through the gaps.

You MIGHT have got a decent RIB and skipper out but it really was a bad day. I think Last Call saw a flatish spell and went for it, as I say even if your within the extensions you'll still struggle to turn around.

Below taken from Yorkshire Ports:

Whitby Harbour is located on the north east coast of England and is one of the only harbours with a north facing entrance. This can cause difficulties for vessels entering the harbour as there is a strong easterly set across the harbour entrance during the two hours preceding high water.

Dangerous sea conditions can occur at the harbour entrance during strong North to East onshore winds. Entry to Whitby Harbour for small craft is not recommended during this time.

[codprawn]

I think trying to turn around was their biggest mistake(apart from setting out in the 1st place) - they may have made it further out - the water is usually a bit calmer.

[chewy]

Yup, they turned just outside of the harbour. A scar runs right the way out the south side. I think all they found was a tacho and a couple of small items from the boat.

[m chappelow]

well one things for certain your much safer in a rib or sib than probely any other small boat size for size ,

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by Jon.esp

I understand the arguments for and against trailing warps and was surprised to hear of it used in something like a rib. I would interested to hear if anyone else had used such a technique and would like to know how they got on.

Or is the chap with the traffic cone the only one out there.

Jon

eeeerrr,, i said boater not ribber .

[Jon.esp]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

i said boater not ribber .

Ahh... misread it, makes sense now, Thanks

[m chappelow]

[QUOTE=neilda;312080] Terrifying stuff - tragic too that four lost their lives.

Reading that made me stop and wonder what that must have been like, awful, really awful. Reminds me again that the sea can be a monster. [/QUOTE

the biggest problem that day was that all the slipways where people had launched from were then subjected to large dumping waves,,with it being a sunny fine calm day lots of boaters alot that normally wouldent venture out did, and they couldednt get back on to shore , we had to use our clubs boat shed slip tucked away around the back of the yard in paddys hole ,normally only used for hauling out larger boats for repairs and that was nearly as bad there ,though we could with a bit of difficulty get people out unlike some places in the area ,,,.mart

[cuttlefish]

Hi.
After your exchange below, I have been looking very carefully at the photos of the Trent leaving the harbour. I don't think I would like to be in that even with a Botnia Targa; certainly not in a 25, and probably not even in a 30 (if you know these boats).

Brrrr.
rupert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewy
No it wouldn't, have you seen the photos of the Trent leaving the harbour.
It does seem worse right at the harbour mouth but I suspect the lifeboat was giving it some welly hence the impressive spray. I have truly been out in as bad - in our area those conditions are quite common.

And if you watch the video I posted you will see it is far worse again and the RIB type boat was coping very well.

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by rupert

Hi.
After your exchange below, I have been looking very carefully at the photos of the Trent leaving the harbour. I don't think I would like to be in that even with a Botnia Targa; certainly not in a 25, and probably not even in a 30 (if you know these boats).

Yes, Rupert, I know all those boats reasonably well and I agree with you. In fact, I wouldn't particularly have liked to be there in the Trent either (another boat I know pretty well, and hold in very high regard). This was a very very sad occasion which we would all wish could have been avoided. At the very least, we should gain anything we can by learning from it. As I intimated earlier in this thread, I do fear that too many people fail to pay the sea the respect that they should, and wherever that attitude persists - either through recklessness or naivety - there will inevitably be casulaties sooner or later. Sometimes, unfortunately, those casualties come from the rescuers and that makes the tragedy even worse