Rules

[Manos]

I think that the sea is a dangerous place to be if you get over confident or have a cavalier attitude about it.
Regulation prevents more people getting hurt (some will get hurt any way law of probability).
However, I have to agree that it does not matter how many safety equipment you have on a boat if you do not know how to use them. This is why it should be made MANDATORY to have an ICC or some short of certificate certifying boat competence which is issued by a recognised body i.e. the RYA.
People on boats without the proper education on the subject are like a Patriot missile without its guidance system

[Brian]

I agree that the sea CAN be a dangerous place to be, but so are the mountains in winter, and how many people are injured and killed there?

Going to the other extreme, driving a car and using our road system is one of the most heavily regulated activities, strictly enforced by a large contingent of specially trained and equiped Police Officers, yet IS STILL the biggest killer of all!

Also agree with you Manos on training and (perhaps) certification. It largely works in the diving world doesn't it? Most dive boat skippers and many tank refillers require you to "prove" that you are competant.

[narked]

Tank fillers, not in my experience. They only tend to demand proof of qualification if you request Nitrox or Trimix. Normal air you could get no problems without qualification.
However, most of the inland dive sites need you to prove you're either qualified or will be diving with an instructor, but that's more a case of them needing to protect themselves incase of an accident.

Rebreathers, however, do tend to need qualifications to even be purchased. If I wanted a brand new AP Inspiration closed circuit rebreather, there's only one way to buy it, and that's through a qualified instructor. And when you buy it, part of the price is a training course which you do before the rebreather unit is handed over to you. You could of course by one second hand and save yourself a couple of grand, but that saving could, if you aren't trained properly, quite literally cost you your life.

As Brian said, roads are indeed still bloody dangerous, but they are still policed quite well, by a large organisation that is pretty much dedicated to it. The cost of anything similar for our coastal areas would be likely be stupidly higher.

Matt

[Manos]

I agree with you guys. However, for driving a car you need a licence, to climb a mountain you need professional training, to dive you need to be certified and I can go on for ever.
As far as I know the UK is the only EU country that you do not need any certification what so ever to drive a boat. Further there is NO regulations or legislation from the Government regarding leisure craft safety. There are no checks by the Coastguard or MSA on leisure craft and there no fines imposed (only in very rare cases) to people who behave like mavericks in the sea.
I have may examples in and around the Isle of White where IDIOTS on wet bikes (jet skies) drive very near the beach doing 40 and 50 knots (something that you see in NIGERIA or DOMINICAN REPUBLIC) trying to cure their p...k extension syndrome and they also drive round and round your boat for hours like there is no any where else to go.
There is no rule prohibiting that short of behavior in the UK as there is no rule prohibiting the same thing in UGANDA, NIGERIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, INDIA, PAKISTAN (I know this cause I've been there) etc etc, however in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Holland, Germany, Greece, Turkey, and many other countries the penalty is to CONFISCATE YOUR JET SKI AND PAY A VERY HEAFTY FINE!!!. So no body dares do it!!
Any way I think that in the UK a regulatory authority SHOULD TAKE OVER and impose some rules and regulations to something which is a very enjoyable sport and hobby. They will have to do it any way as this is a must directed by the EU.

[Richard B]

Originally posted by Manos
there is NO regulations or legislation from the Government regarding leisure craft safety

Wrong!

Firstly, large motor vessels (over 12m?) come under commercial regulations. (See the ninth article here...)
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/news/prosecutions/index.htm

Secondly ALL pleasure vessels are within the scope of SOLAS chapter 5.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/publications/leaflets/Solas.pdf

Sorry, but regulation is already here.

[Aging Youth]

Wow this has certainly opened up the debate.

Ref emergency services I agree that they are paid/volunteer but if you talk to these people how many times do you hear the expression "What a waste of life, Could have been prevented, If only", excetera excetera!!

Would not these services better used by those who really need them?

I agree there will always be people who will take risks, but ask Allan P. I bet they are very calculated ones. Clibmers, ect.

I belive training is deffinately the possitive way forward rather than compulsory enforcement. However, some people who think they no better, still chose to ignore & flout the Rules, Regulations or Laws. Therefore, enforecemnt does become an issue.

The minority will always spoil it for the majority

Regards

[Dirk Diggler]

Oops!

[Brian]

Well done Dirk.
All this cause Manos wanted to sell us a cork float each to go on our boats!

[Dirk Diggler]

It was an accident, but whilst we are on the subject of legislation, does any one really think that holding a piece of paper such as an ICC is going to save lives. Is it not true that motor accidents increased after the seat belt rule, having to wear a belt made some people drive faster and with less care, almost like it made them feel invincible.

Legislation would be another form of taxation, just a money spinner for those that regulate it. If the government really wanted to save lives, they would ban smoking, but as the taxes raised from it go towards funding the national health, we'd all be in trouble.

Surely the last bit of freedom that we have should be left alone, I was attracted to boats in my teens due to numerous speeding fines, and being constantly stopped by the police because my car didn't fit my profile. Because of this I bought a skiboat to "let off steam". Mind you I did get find for speeding in the first month of ownership by the harbourmaster in Looe.

[jwalker]

So then, this regulation stuff is all your fault?


Do your own thing and do it safely.


I like the oars bit of the Greek regs. Who's going to be able to paddle a 1 ton boat a mile or two or ten? And, I'm a canoeist. They can be useful in remote areas for landing amongst rock or weed but for safety...just silly.

[Mike Garside]

Originally posted by Dirk Diggler
...does any one really think that holding a piece of paper such as an ICC is going to save lives....
Surely the last bit of freedom that we have should be left alone...

Didn't expect to find myself agreeing with your views D.Diggler - but in this case I do.

Mrs G and I have just spent 300 plus quid between us to each get a Level II cert. We need it in order to get our ICC. I don't want any grief when we take the RIB to Euroland this year.

Nice young man spent 2 days with us pottering around in Falmouth harbour and chatting in a portacabin. If that was meant to make me a safe, competent driver then it was an ineffective waste of time and good money.

PS. This thread is a real re-run of another that got a lot of people hot under the collar last year. You either believe in having people rule your every move in life - or you don't. And I don't. I just want to be left alone. or should that be ?

[Manos]

Originally posted by Brian
All this cause Manos wanted to sell us a cork float each to go on our boats!

Are you mad or what?? Who said about selling anything

[seafariskye]

Mike

Agree with what you are saying ----- but (as usual) there are other issues.
Your 2 days with some fella in a portacabin, may/were a seemingly waste of time -- for someone of your experience, which is vast in the 'sea world' without a doubt - you could teach all of us a thing or 2, if all knew your history --- which i do, coming from a saily/yachty word before now.

BUT - there is still nothing to stop, some spanner, who has a load of ££££ behind him/them -- wandering into a showroom, and buying the fastest thing there?? with any number of HP on the arse --- therefore a dangerous thing/combination to have on the water -- I have had people wanting to buy, in the past, " I like that thing over there" it looks fast - whats that thing on the bottom of it --- a Keel--- some people do simply not know the difference, and do no know how to handle things that are dangerous in the wrong hands.

There is nothing to stop(at the moment) anyone buying any size/speed/type of craft, not knowing about, even the basics of tides/weather/wind on what they are doing.

Personally i am all in favour of a minimum course/qualification that people have to have before they are allowed on the water.

How many people on this forum, have been/done a course, relevant to their boat ?
If i knew how to set up a poll thing i would ---- anyway bet not that many!!

Pete F

[Manos]

What ever you say you cannot convince me as well as a few others that the UK is a regulated and properly controlled leisure craft country!

Regulation is there not to restrict but to minimise unnecessary accidents!!

In any case this is my view. All of you have your views which I respect.

This debate will be open ended again so the bottom line of it all is that the majority do not want regulation at sea which is fine if you sail in UK waters and you wish to endanger yours and other peoples lives.

Abroad however the sea is STRICTLY REGULATED and all have to abide by the law!

[seafariskye]

What ever you say you cannot convince me as well as a few others that the UK is a regulated and properly controlled leisure craft country!

That is because it is not at the moment, in any way that is helpful to the people that are - there is no qualification needed to buy or thrash about in anything/anysize in the UK.

I take it is differerent where you are, Manos, if so ---- briefly how??

Pete F

[Manos]

Originally posted by seafariskye
I take it is differerent where you are, Manos, if so ---- briefly how??

I will speak about Greece as I know it best but I believe that the same or similar regulations apply to Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Holland, Germany and may be other EU countries too.

1. To buy a boat: You can purchase a boat of any type size etc with any type/size engine without having any qualification what so ever.

2. To Sail a boat: For a person to sail/motor a boat a certificate of competence issued by the Greek Coast Guard ONLY is needed (other EU or Internationally recognised certificates i.e. an ICC is sufficient). The person has to undertake tests (practical and written) at the Greek Coast Guard stations at any port or harbour in Greece (usually test dates are every month from March to October). The tests are NOT private chit-chat but actual tests under the presence of an officer.

3. Note: Greek Coast Guard is policing the Greek seas and has enormous powers to impose fines, confiscate boats and can also imprison people if they do not obey the law.

4. Safety: All crafts should abide by the safety regulations a part of which was the beg of this Thread. If the Coast Guard finds that a craft does not comply the fines are very high (starting from Euro 500) to confiscating the boat or imprisonment.

5. Sailing areas: All boats/crafts etc should NOT sail/motor at speed (4 knots max) if they are closer than 200 mtrs from the shore. Not compliance is imprisonment.

6. All the regulations apply to all crafts (foreign or Greek flag) of ANY SIZE

I can't think of anything else right now.

Also I forgot to post at the beg of the thread that one of the safety requirements on the boat is a fire extinguisher (5 ltrs min) for boats over 5 mtrs LOA. For boats of 10 mtrs and over other regulations apply

[wavelength]

What would worry me with this compulsory training thing is that I would probably have never got into boating all those years ago had I not had the chance to just buy a boat ad go to sea with no regulation. The lads in our boat club which had really only just started then were really good with advice and helping out launching etc and we all learnt as we went along. Scares me now how little we knew between us. But we learned as we went along and looked after each other. Make it compulsory and perhaps the folk we get on courses would not be so keen to learn if they HAD to do it.
Any way whatever the future holds for training I've just come in from a really nice night out running an advanced course. glorious sunshine during the day and a crisp night with a bit of mist absolutely bloody marvellous-if it goes on like this until july and then warms up a bit I'll be a very 'appy bunny!

[crazyhorse]

This is mainly relevant for offshore destination boats IMHO

Mike G you cant do your sort of Sea miles withought knowing how to read a chart or compass so your Sea experience makes up for any course qualifications you will ever get.

I actually agree that the ICC qualification is by no means anything like what you need to take a boat out to sea offshore.Its a good start for somebody starting out,thats all.

I also did my level 2 and ejoyed it very much as Sue my other half had never been on a boat and it got her into it and she also has her day skipper.

I also have my Day skipper which was the best course I ever did,and My RNlI inshore lifeboat Helmsmans certificate.I also did my Sea survival and GMDSS radio course and Power boat 2.But not advanced as yet as I fancy Irland/Scotland for that this yr if poss.
I dont believe I need it, but if your not out all the time its a great refresher for me and good fun and hopefully sue will enjoy the Crack.

The best learner for me was my First Day skipper course aprox 12 yrs ago as it tought me how to interpret a chart and compass and what a tide was.

I still want my Yachtmaster but it takes to long and I personaly find that with todays instruments that I feel confident in my own skills.

If I decide to charter the Eurocommuter offshore then I will need to do it then.


Personaly I am for a minimum standard of course for any skipper going offshore in a boat,As I cant understand how they get back home safley withought it.

Doing all my courses was realy enjoyable for me as it is great fun and you get a great deal of satisfaction out of understanding what is going on around you.
More so than somebody who looks at a red light and says,we must be near land as I can see there brake lights in the distance.

The thing here is responsibility and if your responsible you will learn what your doing and enjoy it,if you dont then stay at home as its far safer and more enjoyable when the wind gets up.

I also would like to say that relying on the company of other boats is great fun and a good learning platform,but in my oppinion a true offshore boat/crew should be able to totaly rely on itself first. This is a frame of mind ,as there could be offshore situations where a boat due to swell can not be helped very effectivley by others,becouse of the conditions. Or both boats could be put in peril by doing so.


I personaly object to Surveyors and the Insurance people as In my oppinion they are the ones who are going to be running the show.

I do my courses becouse I love the Sea and everything about it,Those that see courses as a chore and have no sea experience to back up what they do or where they go,are the ones likely to have no insurance,and wing it till something goes wrong.IMHO

Thats my bit, so please dont anybody fall out about it,as it will not change the way I feel on this matter.

PS I can also say that I have personaly been put at risk on two different occasions by fully Qualified RYA yacht master instructers.
So the moral of my tail is learn for yourself and trust in youself.

And qualifications alone dont maketh Man but its a start in the right direction for a Newbee or a New Skipper going offshore IMHO

[Richard B]

Originally posted by wavelength
I've just come in from a really nice night out running an advanced course.

That sounds like what I'd call job satisfaction! It's almost 12 months since I did the adv. PB course, and I'd do it all over again. Excellent experience. Good point about compulsory training losing the motivation, but would it really be like that? Will we ever find out?

[Manos]

I agree with CH and most that the paper does not give you experience. And (unfortunately) there are some people who 'know all' have the higher certification and they can get you in to trouble. I also agree that the ICC is not a great proof about ones seamaship.
However, what I am trying to say is that one neeeds to start from somewhere. Learn the basics and improve his/her skills from there on. This is whay regulation is needed. To try to prevent an accident when poss