Rules

[Manos]

I agree with CH and most that the paper does not give you experience. And (unfortunately) there are some people who 'know all' have the higher certification and they can get you in to trouble. I also agree that the ICC is not a great proof about ones seamaship.
However, what I am trying to say is that one neeeds to start from somewhere. Learn the basics and improve his/her skills from there on. This is whay regulation is needed. To try to prevent an accident when poss

[Mike Garside]

Crazyhorse, you old rascal, I have finally realised that you are a serious tease! From here....

Originally posted by crazyhorse
This is mainly relevant for offshore destination boats...

.....right through to here.....

.....but its a start in the right direction for a Newbee or a New Skipper going offshore IMHO

....the speling and gramer was perfick! Must taek yoo ours too cum up wiv sum of the butes yoo dish owt to us orl!

But, seriously, all contributors to the argument on this thread, IMO, make sound arguments in support of rules. I respect those views and cannot disagree with the logic.

On the other hand I, like many of the "free spirits" I have met over the years, find my hackles rising as I see the approach of the thin end of a wedge.

[Keith Hart]

You either believe in having people rule your every move in life - or you don't. And I don't. I just want to be left alone. or should that be ?

Hear! Hear! I''m right beside you on that one Mike. We can chat about that subject on our 'Round the UK by RIB to get to The Great Orkney SIB Expedition 2003' run.

Keith (freedom fighter) Hart

[Mike Garside]

And you, Hart, are the ultimate opportunist. A natural sense of opportunism is fundamental to all successful freedom fighters.

[Keith Hart]

And you, Hart, are the ultimate opportunist. A natural sense of opportunism is fundamental to all successful freedom fighters

Oh yes! You can see the website as well.

Thanks Mike

Keith (August is THE month) Hart

[Jelly]

Having been teaching PB2 and PB4/SB for a number of years now, I can see a need for some basic training.
There are some serious muppets out there who souldn't be let out in a bath tub. Of those muppets there are people with the tickets who if they remember what they were taught (won't get into substandard teaching ) and those without training.
Flip side I know people without tickets who are better, safer and more knowedgeable than a lot of the PB instructors.

I don't know the answer, you can teach people and they do it correctly on the test, then ignnor all they have been taught.
OK rant over
Jelly

(Bath tub being the size of water not the vessel of choice )

[whitingiom]

You don't need to do two days training to get ICC.

As I read it there is an option to 'do the test' rather than do the theory.

When I did mine, as I had Yachtmaster Theory certificate, I was only tested on the boathandling, safety etc parts of the syllabus and it took 1 day.

I'm doing another two day course soon though, as my handling etc was done in the confines of an estuary. Hopefully we'll get some real Irish Sea waves this time!

[dgpw]

. Is it not true that motor accidents increased because of the seat belt rule, having to wear a belt made some people drive faster and with less care, almost like it made them feel invincible.

I dont agree cars are far more powerfull now they are smother and feel safer. This is not to do with the seatbelts. most modern cars can now do atleast 120 this was not the case years ago. Pluss the amount of people on the roads has increased and will increase over and over as fammilies get 2nd 3rd and even 4th and 5th cars.

I think that a good solid handeling test would make the world of difference. i also think that the age of the driver should be irrelevent. I have taught 12 year olds that are far mor compitont than 50 year olds. Maby say they have to be supivised but that is different.

[Brian]

I still haven't seen anyone suggest one single new law that they would like to see passed, what diference it would make, how much it would cost and how you would enforce it.
If no one can suggest anything sensible, why are we still discussing it?

[thewavehumper]

Let's start by saying that all new boats could only be delivered to ICC holders and must come with minimum safety equipment.

Now lets discuss how this could work

How about when you pays your deposit for your new boat, and we all know it's going to be a little while before it arrives, the manufacturer could inform you that you need an ICC and advise you where to get one from.

How about all new boats must be supplied with adequate safety equipment as specified by the relevant controlling Authority or me

Let's see

Flares
Compass
Lifejackets for the seating capacity of the boat
First aid Kit
the list needn't be exhaustive and wouldn't put much on the cost of a new boat

Also the ICC and RYA should be competency based. and not curriculum based if you can demonstrate adequate knowledge and ability then there is no reason why it couldn't be done in a couple of hours. What I am really saying is make a test option as well as lessons.

Most of the time I don't wear a seatbelt when I drive, it's nothing Macho I just got out of the habit but I truly believe that the legislation should exist so that they must be fitted and worn.

DPGW who said you could use my fingers...but being fluent in typo I truly agree with your comments

[Brian]

Sounds very sensible.
A couple of quick questions:
1. What is a boat-a rib, a sib, a sailing dinghy, a cabin cruiser? i.e. define boat
2. Is this just a UK rule?-suppose I buy from Valiant in Portugal or, dare I mention it, South Africa?
3. As this is my second boat and I already have all that gear, can I buy my boat without the added expense of paying for more safety kit?
4. What about boats which are bought "hull only" and fitted out by me and me mates in a garage?
5. Who will police and control this and what are the penalties for breaking your new law?
6. And finally, for the moment, how much will your new law cost to implement, update, control and police and what are the cost benefits of it?
Very sensible suggestion though. I totally agree one should be trained, certificated and have all the safety gear. No argument. But a law?

[John Kennett]

Originally posted by THEWAVEHUMPER
Also the ICC and RYA should be competency based. and not curriculum based if you can demonstrate adequate knowledge and ability then there is no reason why it couldn't be done in a couple of hours. What I am really saying is make a test option as well as lessons.

There is already, but it doesn't seem to be very well publicised!

John

[karlT]

The only rules applicable in the UK are SOLAS chapter V.

This requires all vessels to carry lifejackets, flares, 1st aid, charts.

Also to undergo some sort of passage plan before departing to sea, this may be just a note of paper with weather and tides but would constitute a plan. This IS required for any trip, even a spin around the bay.

There is very little policing of these rules as yet so many are unaware of them. However, I believe with the increase of MCA boats and trained personnel we may see more prosecutions of people who have failed to carry the correct equipment and are involved in an accident.

As far as compulsory training goes: IMHO as an Instructor

Training does benefit those entering the sport with no friends / family to gain experience from. However, they must seek the education and training rather than be forced to undergo it.

A New Zealand report a few years back looked extensively at improving recreational safety. The results of their extensive research showed that the UK is by far the least regulated but has the safest records of all world countries and US states included in the research.

In the Uk as few as 20% of participants undergo formal training.

The MCA acknowledge that if compulsory training is required they have failed in their education initiatives.

Mike G,

Sorry to hear of your experience in Falmouth. As with all things in life, someone sets a standard and not everyone sets out to exceed the minimum requirements.

The ICC is obtainable in a 2 hour practicle test that will involve a very short passage and a few questions of the candidates to ensure the knowledge. The CEVNI test can be sat in an evening after a short bit of self learning.

If you believe you were mis informed prior to the course / ICC by the school, I strongly suggest you make a complaint to the RYA. It is better to be heard than just moan on this site, that way some other poor soul won't suffer in the way you and your wife have.

[Manos]

Guys if you don't mind me saying THIS IS THE BEST DISCUISSION EVER.
Very sensible and worth reading comments and ideas!!

[Mike Garside]

Originally posted by Brian
[B]...define boat.../B]

Excellent place to start, Brian.

Assuming the element that is common to all "boats" is going to be water, I s'pose a "boat" has probably got to encompass everything from the sort of thing from which Maxwell's fall of the back...right though to a child's water wings.

Or am I being too narrow in my thinking? Are we to assume that a "boat" is only something that might float ON water. Would a hovercraft be a boat? And would one of those sort of underwater motors that scuba divers hang on to, and get towed about by, be a "boat"?

This, IMHO, needs careful thought. No-one in his or her right mind would want to find us with another of those less than cleverly thought through law proposals. Y'know, the sort that has yobbos frog marched to cash machines to pay on-the-spot fines.

Or do they?

[dgpw]

DPGW who said you could use my fingers...but being fluent in typo I truly agree with your comments [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry all was in a meeting at the time.

[Manos]

This is stipulated in the Carriage of Goods by Sea Act 1971. However, I do not have the book with me so I can't tell you exactly what it says. But I remember that it was complicated.

In Canada a boat is defined as follows:
Industry Definition
Ship and Boat Building
(NAICS 3366)
'Boats are defined as water-craft suitable or intended for personal or recreational use.'

[Mike Garside]

Originally posted by karlT
Mike G, Sorry to hear of your experience in Falmouth.

No, no, no, Karl.

I was not complaining about sub-standard teaching. Far from it. The guy who owns the school is a RNLI man and the guy who taught us is well experienced. They were knowledgeable, helpful, enthusiastic and charming blokes. And we did learn bits and pieces.

My beef is that I have had to pay good money to get a bit of paper that Certifies me as Internationally Competent.

If, as some Forum activists would have it, I and others do this Level 2 powerboat course before being allowed to get anywhere near a boat, the last thing it would do is prove me seriously "Internationally Competent."

I might be, but equally well I might not be. I wonder how many people take the two day course and actually are told they have failed at the end of it

I now have the paper and I am legal "sur le continent,"but it proves nothing other than that I have done a very basic course for which I paid a lot of money.

[Manos]

Originally posted by Mike Garside
I now have the paper and I am legal "sur le continent,"but it proves nothing other than that I have done a very basic course for which I paid a lot of money.

So there is not a fee set by the RYA (I suppose) for these courses?? or can any one charge as much as they want?

[Mike Garside]

Yes, Manos, the Level 2 course is about £150. That, to me, is a lot of money for a bit of paper to make me legal.