RYA ? Uh? What is it good for?

[havener]

Apologies for the rather dodgy song title thread name!

Following on from the "Don't support the RNLI" thread which pointed out that independants can do as good a job as a major national institution, my thoughts turned to the RYA (also fed by a thread on the Commercial forum).

Now don't get me wrong, I applaud much of what the RYA does - youth sailing involvement, designing (some) course syllabuses, etc....but what really winds me up is their attitude that they are the sole guardian of all that is good in the boating world. They don't represent manufacturers (BMF), offshore sail racing (RORC), and to me their stance recently on licencing and drink-boating have marginalised themselves to that of a self-interest pressure group. Even their slogan, (Protecting and Promoting Boating) is self-serving suggesting that boating needs protecting from anyone! I support their campaign on red diesel, but then surely that should be part of a wider campaign to reduce over taxation on ALL fuels, rather than just a "let motorists pay but not us" type view.

So where's this all leading? Simple - I'd like some views back on a little idea I have - namely that the MCA should be responsible for the setting of, and awarding of, training standards (especially VHF, where the RYA have been awarded a legal monopoly unknown in any other area), and that ANY suitably qualified person could become an instructor teaching to a national, independantly examined, course.

In other words, exactly what exists in relation to driver licensing in the motoring world.

And the point of this change - to open up training to properly regulated competition, meaning that students and instructors can choose how to teach a course provided that the content required by the exam is tought, without instructor fees etc going to the RYA. Of course, if the RYA want to continue to develop new courses or course material, that's fine, and they're also welcome to charge anyone who wants to use such material.

So, any thoughts? (Grabs helmet and runs for cover.....)

[codprawn]

Put the Gestapo in charge? Have you gone mad???

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Put the Gestapo in charge? Have you gone mad???

[Doug Stormforce]

You present a very odd argument, you give examples of alchol and taxation policy and then propose reform in training.

What is wrong? have you recently failed and RYA exam or something?

[havener]

No, I've never had any problem passing RYA exams.

My problem is simply that on one hand they are acting as a pressure group - on the drinking / licencing / diesel issue, and that's fine if that's what they want to do, although as a member I have never been asked whether I agree with their stance, but on the other hand they act as a regulator - VHF licencing especially where if people want to abide by the law, they have no option but to go through the RYA.

And in my view you cannot be a pressure group and a regulator at the same time.

The MCA are the regulator - its what we pay them for via taxation, and therefore the buck stops with them. It's not a question of putting them in charge - they already are!

I'm simply arguing for a level playing field for instruction, whereby anyone can be validated to instruct via the regulator - that's what happens in the merchant marine to a large degree.

It's the difference between policy making and service delivery - no-one expects the RNLI to coordinate search and rescue, but likewise HMCG can't deliver the service of operating lifeboats. The two are seperate and it works brilliantly.

As I said, much of what the RYA does is good - even if on some issues I don't agree with them, I'll still pay my subs and respect their campaigning stance, and if by promoting their own training schemes one person comes home safely who might not have done, that's great. But there are others with views of equal weight and experience to the RYA - and they should not be marginalised by the regulator only listening to one voice.

After all, if the Fire services can recognise three water rescue / boat handling training providers with different certifications, then surely the same can apply to the rest of us?

I guess I just have a natural distrust of monopolies!

[Pete7]

Handing control to the MCA could be good for training schools, especially if they required re-testing say every five years Probably best to implement it though the back door by some suitable EEC regulation. They would also need an Army of civil servants to "police" the system. With some more thought I could probably write a suitable job description that would involve spending sunny days zooming around the Solent with blue lights flashing, overtime and a hardship allowance for working on an open rib, oh and of course a gold plated final salary pension scheme.

That should finish off codders nicely

Pete

[havener]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Handing control to the MCA could be good for training schools, especially if they required re-testing say every five years Probably best to implement it though the back door by some suitable EEC regulation. They would also need an Army of civil servants to "police" the system. With some more thought I could probably write a suitable job description that would involve spending sunny days zooming around the Solent with blue lights flashing, overtime and a hardship allowance for working on an open rib, oh and of course a gold plated final salary pension scheme.

That should finish off codders nicely

Pete

Funny, I've never noticed the RYA doing that to "police" training centres, and yet "rogue" centres are very few and far between....so why do you think the MCA would need to do it that way?

A regular visit from your local HMCG Sector Manager should surely suffice - and isn't 5 years considerably more than the RYA currently revalidate?

And the benefit would be that, if done properly, any surplus from validation fees would boost the SAR budget.

[Solent Ranger]

[QUOTE=havener;169289
namely that the MCA should be responsible for the setting of, and awarding of, training standards (especially VHF, where the RYA have been awarded a legal monopoly unknown in any other area), and that ANY suitably qualified person could become an instructor teaching to a national, independantly examined, course.

/QUOTE]

But the VHF course is! The RYA offers the VHF course under the auspice of the MCA. It is also the only RYA course where the assessor is subjected to an external quality control report. About twice a year an assessor gets a envelope through the door which is is an independent audit of their performance. That report also goes to the powers that be.

You seem to be wanting to shake a tree for no reason.

[Simon Hawkins]

If you look back you will see that the MCA did use to operate its own training schemes. The RYA was then formed and the MCA then gave alicence to them to prepare and run the courses, hence why commercial endorsements are given from the RYA.

Simon

[tim griffin]

Yachtmaster International an American Company are approved by the MCA
BSAC Diver Coxswain approved by the MCA
RLSS UK Rescue Helm training programme approved by MCA as club's can gain SAR recognition
Same goes for the SLS GB Rescue Helm

So it seems other organisations can gain MCA approval to run training

[pop]

with the fast track courses set up with the RYA they are passing out so many yacht masters its a joke. really they should make the exams harder and not except people with less the 6,000 nm instead of 2,500nm this would stop all the fast track that goes on in the RYA.

when i arrive in new zealand i have to do a poxy boatmans license and navigation test even though i have just finished my cls 4. The Rya and MCA say how world wide they are and that other countries are looking up to them so to speak. I have never arrived in a country with my tickets and not had to explain who the MCA are.

It would be far better for the RYA/MCA to separate completely, so as we know who the really mariners are.

[Jelly]

Just for your interest RYA do do spot inspections on centres and have been known to put their own candidates onto suspect course to observe and gain evadence.
James

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Yachtmaster International an American Company are approved by the MCA
BSAC Diver Coxswain approved by the MCA
RLSS UK Rescue Helm training programme approved by MCA as club's can gain SAR recognition
Same goes for the SLS GB Rescue Helm

So it seems other organisations can gain MCA approval to run training

Agree with Tim and can also add BWS to the list, the MCA recognises them to deliver powerboat and icc certificates as well.

If you want to become recognised by the MCA to run a training scheme then go for it, personally I think that as long as we have the RYA to do this for us then why would anyone else want to go through all that grief and hassel. They do after all do a good job and do not charge much for what they do.

[havener]

Originally Posted by pop

with the fast track courses set up with the RYA they are passing out so many yacht masters its a joke. really they should make the exams harder and not except people with less the 6,000 nm instead of 2,500nm this would stop all the fast track that goes on in the RYA.

when i arrive in new zealand i have to do a poxy boatmans license and navigation test even though i have just finished my cls 4. The Rya and MCA say how world wide they are and that other countries are looking up to them so to speak. I have never arrived in a country with my tickets and not had to explain who the MCA are.

It would be far better for the RYA/MCA to separate completely, so as we know who the really mariners are.

A good point.

Not so long ago, the RYA were happy for "their" centres to allow people to do an RYA PB2 course Mon/Tue, then instructors course Wed > Fri, then certify them as instructors! So you had an instructor with nil experience teaching others....great idea!

Agree with you Tim on the availablility of courses other than the RYA, but this is hardly stuff aimed at the general public. Most rescue organisations have taught way above PB2 or Advanced for years anyway.

It's the monopoly handed to the RYA for legal requirement licencing that annoys me most. When we get compulsory licencing, and it is when not if, its just a matter of when Brussels gets round to it, do we then expect the RYA to be the sole certification authority on behalf of the MCA?

[Jimbo]

Havener,

I'm not really sure what your problem is, you seem to be repeating old arguments that other people have rebutted. It may be worth remembering that no organisation is perfect, and non are all knowing.

Why does the delegation of authority the MCA have upset you so much? You make the point of taxpayers money going to the MCA - Leisure boats are not regulated, and as the RYA is aimed mainly at the Leisure Market, why should taxpayers have to pay for that? Better, surely, that the MCA delegate responsibility for some certification to the RYA, so that the small percentage of people attending an RYA/RLSS/BWS/BSAC Course/Using an RYA/RLSS/BWS/BSAC centre can take exams, with people who have, by definition, been approved by the MCA to act as examiners?

Do you not think that the differing skillsets of instructors found in this huge variety of organisations authourised by the MCA can only promote better boating for their customers, as it is more relevant training?

Originally Posted by havener

Not so long ago, the RYA were happy for "their" centres to allow people to do an RYA PB2 course Mon/Tue, then instructors course Wed > Fri, then certify them as instructors! So you had an instructor with nil experience teaching others....great idea!

I came across a similarly ill informed and chinese whispered argument from a Naval acquaintance the other day. The RYA Scheme used to be very much focused around dinghy sailors, and dinghy instructors. In order to be a Dinghy Instructor (trained/assessed by a coach) you had to have a powerboat level 2 certificate. At that time, to be allowed to teach the powerboat courses, if you were a Senior Dinghy Instructor, you could. As the RYA found more and more leisure powerboaters coming to them for courses (and remember - that is how it happened, the leisure powerboaters went to RYA centres, as there were few other places to go) the RYA started (and is still continuing to develope further) reworking their powerboat courses and instructor schemes to better suit a changing market. Along the way, the Powerboat Level 2 became recognised for an International Certificate of Competence, and the Advanced (I think it used to be a level 5?) became endorseable to use commercially.

In order to become an RYA Powerboat Instructor, you have to have 5 years, or 1 year if it's part of your full time job using a powerboat. You then attend a 3 day course run by a powerboat trainer, and moderated by another, and if successful you may then teach powerboat levels 1 & 2. If you don't hold your level 2 before the course, but are an experienced powerboat cox'n, it is conceivable that you could do your level 2 by direct assessment before the course.

Now, at that stage, all you will be qualified to teach are Levels 1 & 2, which are Completion certificates. In order to teach the Advanced and the (relatively) new Intermediate course, you would have to be an Advanced Certificate holder yourself, an experienced instructor, and attend a 2 day endorsement. The RYA recognised that they had an issue with Advanced Instructors providing certificates that became commercially endorseable, so to bring things in line with the Yachtmaster/Coastal Skipper Certificates of Competence, there is now an Advanced Exam, conducted by a Powerboat Trainer (or Yachtmaster Examiner who has been approved by the RYA). So, it is an examined certificate, conducted by someone approved to MCA standards.

As to never having taught anybody - there is little provision anywhere to teach a course without being an Instructor, and a good Instructors course will teach you the skills you need to pass on knowledge and techniques. No instructor is perfect, and we all learn from each course taught, and experiences gained along the way - this is the same across many organisations. On a lot of Instructor Courses, students are used so that the Trainers can assess and hone your skills.

Originally Posted by havener

Agree with you Tim on the availablility of courses other than the RYA, but this is hardly stuff aimed at the general public.

So, who are RYA/BWS/RLSS/BSAC courses aimed at then? I think you're missing the point that they are all aimed at the general public, just a public with different interests/end uses. If I was looking to dive, I'd go to BSAC. If I was looking to use a powerboat for leisure, I'd go to the RYA. For none of those organisations do you have to be anything other than "general public" to take one of their courses.

Originally Posted by havener

Most rescue organisations have taught way above PB2 or Advanced for years anyway.

They are teaching people to do very different things, often in very different environments. If you look closely I think you'll find that the RNLI, GAFIRS, League of Venturers, and several other rescue services actually include RYA Certification in their courses. They also bolt on specific elements that most people attending the courses aimed at the general public would never use. Yes, their crews generally get more experience in towing, mob's, search patterns etc, but I know an RNLI cox'n who can't tie a boat up alongside, or launch and recover, because it's something he has never had to do. We teach this on RYA Courses, as it is something they will have to do!

Originally Posted by havener

It's the monopoly handed to the RYA for legal requirement licencing that annoys me most.

But as people have already shown you - the RYA do not have a monopoly. Just because they are the biggest, doesn't make them the only ones! There are plenty of other routes to commercial and leisure tickets, the RYA is not, as some would have you believe, the be all and end all.

Originally Posted by havener

When we get compulsory licencing, and it is when not if, its just a matter of when Brussels gets round to it, do we then expect the RYA to be the sole certification authority on behalf of the MCA?

Who is the authority for driving licenses? How many different driving licenses can you get? Answer: you can get one. However, you can take it at many different centres.

The MCA does not have the power to be everywhere, and do everything, and it would expend a vast amount of your "taxpayers money" if it tried. They have delegated responsibility to the RYA, who as I have already pointed out, deal largely with leisure users, who should not have their leisure pastimes funded by taxpayers surely? If compulsory licensing for Leisure users comes in, would you like to see that subsidised by the MCA, or would you prefer that a private association administers the qualifications on their behalf?

[pop]

On the yachts that i have skippered a yacht masters get's you a deck hand job, if you are lucky. (and its not just me who works like this)

Shows how well the RYA do in there training, one of there highest qualifications get's you a cleaning job in the crews heads

In a few Ocean Races i have done i have not sailed with a RYA qualified person yet. shows how good they are dont you think?

The whole Rya test needs to be step up a gear and made respectable with in the marine industry like it once was.

how many RYA centers are there in the solent? lots
how can they make sure everyone is by the book?
how do you do the trailer part tim on your COURSES?

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by pop

one of there highest qualifications get's you a cleaning job in the crews heads

noww i noe wy yew orlwaiys smell ov domestoss


gaRf

[The Jackeens]

gArf what's that signature all about?

[pop]

no garfish thats the difference between a yacht master, class 4 people who smell like roses. bite bite

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by pop

how do you do the trailer part tim on your COURSES?

Think you mean me so I will explain For the RYA it is as follows
Knowledge of the subject
The subject will be breifly explained, Familiarisation during the course and information on where to find out more.

Understands the Subject
The subject will be covered in greater depth and you will be asked to demonstrate a basic understanding and go away from the course able to further develop your own skill in this area.Confirmation of your understanding of the subject may be acheived in a number of way's, such as a short quiz at the end of the course.

CAN demonstrate a level of proficiency in the subject.
The subject will be covered in great depth, including background theory,practical demonstrations by the Instructor and repeated practice by yourself until you can demonstrate good skills in this subject.


Section A
Launching and Recovery
Knowledge of :
Use of trailer or launching trolley
Considerations of launching and sea conditions including hazards and obstructions
Number of persons required to launch and recover
Construction , width and condition of slipway

Steep/slippery slipways , beach launching lee shores
Care of trailer bearings ,hitch ,lashings , ties lights and winch
Trailer Parking.

It can and is covered in detail for my students and there are plenty of examples of different slipway's on the river . You have to remember that the level two is not only for ribs but for small sports boats and not every one wants to drag their boat in and out of the water .Where they lose out on launch and recovery they gain in Marina Berthing (part of the Intermediate course where available)
Like all peeps looking to get training it pay's to talk to the school first if you want Launch and recovery then I can alway's recommend a school that covers this in greater detail. If own boat not a problem as we can start the course while she is on the trailer.
Hope that helps .

For the RLSS its all practical beach, river or lake depends on where I am teaching .
Hope that helps on that bit as well