Safe seating arrangements and capacity underway

[Penguinator]

So recently reading a thread on a Facebook page about dangers involved in riding on the seats fwd of the console, I'd like to know what the best practice is for seating passengers while underway?

I'm wanting to buy a RIB as a dive boat, and was attracted to the increased passenger capacity compared to a similarly sized normal boat. But if I'm getting a 5m-5.5m RIB with a rated capacity of 9, but the only seating rear of the console is the console seating and a rear bench, should I only be realistically carrying 4-5 people? Or do people also sit on the tubes in the rear of the boat? I kind of pictured being able to have 2 people on the fwd seats, 2 at the console on jockeys, and 2-3 people on a rear bench.

It's not like I'm going to be using the boat for hooning around (at least with that many people in it), it's going to be for getting from point A to point B in the fastest most comfortable manner.

[spartacus]

The maximum rated carrying capacity of a RIB is deceptive. Yes you can hypothetically carry the permitted number of people, but the boat will be fully laden, impractical in anything but flat calm conditions, and you need to determine how exactly they'll be seated while underway and how you actually move about the boat if you need to get to the engine for example.

The suicide seat as it's referred to in front of the console is a good example. The person sitting there will have no hand holds using only their feet to brace themselves, they're open to the elements too, especially if you stuff the bow in a following sea.

On a 5.5 to 5.85m RIB, then if it's possible to have 4 jockey seats (2 side by side) with wingback wrap around seat supports and hand holds. A 6m rib you can add a rear bench which needs to be lower than the surrounding tubes (in my opinion) and be well padded, with hand holds or grab handles on the tubes.

Ribeye' A600 is a good example (minus wingback seats), and look to carry 7 maximum for sightseeing. If it was a dive boat, then 4-5 plus your kit.

The rear bench could be dispensed with and add a stainless steel cylinder rack.

Ribcraft 5.85 shows wingback seats.

[Andy_Rs600]

As the above reply the rated capacity and the number of practical seats are often very different, especially in a dive boat where you need tank space.

The reality of most dive RIBs is that most only have one or two seats and everyone else does sit on the tubes. Is this ideal? Absolutely not, but it is the practical methods used by commercial and dive club RIBs all over the world.

If you do go down the route of sitting people on the tubes you have to think carefully about what they will hold onto. Anything on the tubes themselves (handles, lifelines, etc) are totally worthless since they won't stop you falling out of the boat. Every expected seating position needs to have a solid handhold placed inboard of it for the passenger to hold onto. Also think about how the coxswain and any other crew would move around the boat quickly if they needed to - it's easy to fill a dive RIB to the point where no-one can pass anyone else until your first pair is in the water.

The boat I've operated most often in a RibCraft 6.5 with 2 pod seats. We used to routinely run that as 10 divers plus 2 crew. essentially most often transit to/from the site involved four people sitting on each tube and two standing aft of the back of the tank rack. Every position had access to several steel grab handles that were designed with the seating layout in mind.

If the whether was unpleasant or were were going further away we would cut down the number of divers to 8 or 6, but if the weather is bad you aren't diving so generally the diving stops before the boating becomes an issue.

[Phil M]

I find any more than 4 divers plus cox in our 5.3 to be impractical. I have a single console with a tank rack behind and take divers on the tubes (handholds on tank rack and console). It will carry 6 divers but kit takes up so much space that the area in front of the console is filled with bags, there are tanks and wings everywhere and there is no room to move or kit up. With 4 divers, it's a lot easier and you have a little room to move. This is UK diving though with everybody in drysuits with tons of kit, twin tanks often and some spare tanks. I believe the boat is rated to 9 or 12 people, but that would really not work at all.

Phil M

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Penguinator

So recently reading a thread on a Facebook page about dangers involved in riding on the seats fwd of the console, .

thats a misnomer really, plenty of commercial trip boats have ALL the passengers forward of the console because then the helm can see them and knows what antics they are up to.

The issue as Spartacus says is sitting on seats with no hand hold in front of you. You might find this useful: https://assets.publishing.service.go...s_guidance.pdf

BUT that is really intended for (1) Passengers who have little or no experience (and cant be trusted to follow a simple briefing! (2) Boats where the thrill and speed are part of what people are paying for. On a dive rib it may be rather different; (a) people tend not to dive in really bouncy conditions (b) you may have more trust of your pax (c) positioning people on tubes where they will get wet and risk MOB may not be SO bad for divers v's the public (d) your objective is not for speed/trills.

However the crux of your question is really, can you effectively and safely have 9 people diving from a 5.5m rib. I think pretty much everyone will agree, no. I'd add to the above problems by saying IMHO a dive rib should be able to take a casualty lying down with space for someone treating them AND all the other crew/divers on board (with their kit) and still be able to get comfortably on the plane. Ideally it would have all that and enough space for a helo winchman to comfortably land without standing on anyone.

[Fender]

Chap off the Needles 3 or 4 summers ago had his son and a friend riding on the front tubes/bow of his boat and hit a large wave / wash, the son ended up getting killed by the RIB's outboard as the boat went over him....................
Most days on the Solent you see kids and adults sat with there legs dangling off the bow of a boat / RIB while the boats on the plane, sends shivers up my spine - needless to say my passengers have clear instruction where they can and can't sit whilst underway. Be Safe!


http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1019...ting_accident/


Painful reading

[Penguinator]

Thanks for all the answers, sad to hear about all the accidents.

A few points I guess:

- I don't really do much SCUBA anymore, diving will generally be of the freediving variety. The only gear we will be worrying about will be fins, weights, and maybe a small bag for each of us. When we are nearing capacity on the boats we normally are wearing wet suits the entire time. I'm contemplating making a little fin basket to attach to the A frame so that we can get those out of the boat and make more room.

- Like a few mentioned, when we go diving it will be in generally in smoother conditions, so not really worried about heavy seas. When I'll be using the boat for thrills, it will probably be only a few of us.

- I'm not really expecting to push the rated capacity, but I would have liked to seat more people than there are actual seats. One of the RIBs I've been looking at is a Brig Nav 520. It would be nice to have two at the console, three on the rear bench, then if I wanted to squeeze in two more they could sit on the tubes behind the jockeys and hang on to the handles that are on the rear of the cockpit jockey seats. All gear could be up front?

[Striker]

Originally Posted by Fender

Chap off the Needles 3 or 4 summers ago had his son and a friend riding on the front tubes/bow of his boat and hit a large wave / wash, the son ended up getting killed by the RIB's outboard as the boat went over him....................
Most days on the Solent you see kids and adults sat with there legs dangling off the bow of a boat / RIB while the boats on the plane, sends shivers up my spine - needless to say my passengers have clear instruction where they can and can't sit whilst underway. Be Safe!


http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1019...ting_accident/


Painful reading

How horrific! [emoji22]

I regularly let the kids ride on their knees on the bow cushion (not the tubes). I tie a line between the cleats to give them a hand hold. But I guess if the boat stopped dead in the water they too could feasibly go over the bow....

Trouble is it’s the best bit if the rib to them.

I will alway have that newspaper article in my mind from now on.

I’m of to investigate prop guards.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Striker

How horrific! [emoji22]

I regularly let the kids ride on their knees on the bow cushion (not the tubes). I tie a line between the cleats to give them a hand hold. But I guess if the boat stopped dead in the water they too could feasibly go over the bow....

Trouble is it’s the best bit if the rib to them.

I will alway have that newspaper article in my mind from now on.

I’m of to investigate prop guards.

Don't bother with prop guards, just prevent people entering the water unexpectedly in the first place. A prop guard will kill the engine, they have their place in specific circumstances.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Striker

But I guess if the boat stopped dead in the water they too could feasibly go over the bow....

...

I’m of to investigate prop guards.

If the boat stops dead in the water enough for them to be in the water they will:

- Possibly hit whatever stopped you
- Possibly hit by the hull
- NOT be hit by the engine because the boat won't go over them

[beamishken]

Anyone know what the "issue" was to prompt the debate i read a little on a facebook site but it all seemed a bit of a big secret?

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Anyone know what the "issue" was to prompt the debate i read a little on a facebook site but it all seemed a bit of a big secret?

.........

This pretty much covers it..

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1019...ting_accident/

[Searider]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

.........

This pretty much covers it..

Boy died in father's arms after boating accident off Isle of Wight | Daily Echo

it wasn't that one. It was this one raised by Ian Winson on FB after observing very relaxed users on the Hamble last week. Half term 2013.

Padstow RIB tragedy: final report released - Motor Boat & Yachting

[Searider]

Originally Posted by Striker

How horrific! [emoji22]

I regularly let the kids ride on their knees on the bow cushion (not the tubes). I tie a line between the cleats to give them a hand hold. But I guess if the boat stopped dead in the water they too could feasibly go over the bow....

Trouble is it’s the best bit if the rib to them.

I will alway have that newspaper article in my mind from now on.

I’m of to investigate prop guards.

Striker,

Don't let them ride up there.

Speaking to Charlie Hutton's Father after the accident was the most harrowing thing I've had to do in my career. I can't imagine how he must have felt.

I don't want to be having the same conversation with anyone else.

[Searider]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

If the boat stops dead in the water enough for them to be in the water they will:

- Possibly hit whatever stopped you
- Possibly hit by the hull
- NOT be hit by the engine because the boat won't go over them

Shinyshoe,

Don't try to trivialize this. The Charlie Hutton incident DID HAPPEN. No amount of hypothesizing as you've done above will prevent this type of accident.

The boat was travelling at speed, not excessive, was in amongst some waves, again not excessive. The random larger one slowed the boat with a jolt , but didn't stop it and the boys went over the bow.
The rest you can imagine.

Keep safe.

[Searider]

Originally Posted by Poly

thats a misnomer really, plenty of commercial trip boats have ALL the passengers forward of the console because then the helm can see them and knows what antics they are up to.

I think this might be better put as "Some commercial trip boats have the console aft of the passengers where the helm can see them and knows what antics they are up to."

This requires a custom built boat - not just choosing where to put passengers on 5.5m production leisure boat.
In addition the passenger seats on a commercial trip boat will have handholds where they are needed.

All very different to the "Suicide seat" being discussed.

Just to clarify for some of the less experienced members on here.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Searider

Shinyshoe,

Don't try to trivialize this. The Charlie Hutton incident DID HAPPEN. No amount of hypothesizing as you've done above will prevent this type of accident.

Wasn't hypothesising at all. The OP said if the boat stopped dead.
The Hutton incident didn't stop the boat.
The Hutton incident the kids were lying on the tubes based on the descriptions in the press. Oddly this never went to an MAIB report as far as I know - so we don't have real facts.

The boat was travelling at speed, not excessive, was in amongst some waves, again not excessive. The random larger one slowed the boat with a jolt , but didn't stop it and the boys went over the bow.

Originally Posted by Searider

"Some commercial trip boats have the console aft of the passengers where the helm can see them and knows what antics they are up to."

This requires a custom built boat - not just choosing where to put passengers on 5.5m production leisure boat.

If you were moving things round to provide seating, no reason you can't move things more? The challenge may be that if you then want to single hand as well your weight will all be at the stern.

In addition the passenger seats on a commercial trip boat will have handholds where they are needed.

So fit handholds.

All very different to the "Suicide seat" being discussed.

I've seen two seats referred to as the 'suicide seat' - one built into the front of the console and one as the cushion on the bow pad.

The bow pad, seated facing aft would be quite hard to be ejected from if your back rest is the full height of the tube. But on a bumpy ride may not be great for the spine and you can't see where you are going so would be my worst nightmare (seasickness plus fairground ride plus random cold water waves).

Should that pad be used facing forwards on your knees? Not sure is my simple answer. It may well vary by boat and the person kneeling. If the boat stops suddenly will they be stopped by the tubes or carry on forwards - tube height, pad height, their height and use of handholds will all be factors to take into account.

The seat on the front of the console - you face the right way, you see the wave as it hits you. But you have noting in front of you to brace against so if you slip you hit the anchor / pad / person / tube / water. Positioning handholds for that is much trickier in my opinion.

Would I rather have children in my field of view and be able to adjust my driving if they don't hold on than on the tubes behind me? But I tend not to be hitting waves for trills and 20kts would be fast enough.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Searider

I think this might be better put as "Some commercial trip boats have the console aft of the passengers where the helm can see them and knows what antics they are up to."

This requires a custom built boat - not just choosing where to put passengers on 5.5m production leisure boat.

If only I had written more than that and included a link which had some pictures that illustrated Sparticus' point about handholds in front! Your point is of course correct - but my intent was to educate rather than be pedantic. If the OP understands why some seating arrangements are considered poor he can make his own assessment of what is acceptable and what could be changed to make them better.

In addition the passenger seats on a commercial trip boat will have handholds where they are needed.

you'd like to think so... ...however depending on the design such a feature COULD be added to a leisure boat too. In fact if that is the preferred format for paying pax, I wonder why families don't like it?

All very different to the "Suicide seat" being discussed.

But actually its not just the suicide seat that is the issue (at least some models of Brig 520 that the OP refers to in a later post - don't have a suicide seat as we would commonly know it - but have a small area above the anchor locker which I think would be very tempting to sit on for the unaware.

The OP was originally talking about a dive focussed boat, which is also a very different layout from typical pure leisure use.

Originally Posted by Searider

Shinyshoe,
Don't try to trivialize this. .

I read Shiny's comments as suggesting there were several other ways to get maimed by the boat or what it hits too - and that sticking a prop guard on wasn't going to prevent those.

[Pikey Dave]

The term "excessive" when applied to the speed of the boat & size of the waves is subjective. The fact that someone got ejected & died would seem to belie the notion that neither the size of the waves or speed of the boat was excessive. There's no doubt that this was a tragic incident, but you have to question the judgment of the skipper. We all make mistakes (mea culpa) & 99% of the time we get away with it, unfortunately,sometimes we don't.
This is relevant to the OP in that the safest way to transport passengers on a RIB, is sat on a proper seat that gives support & protection.
All IMO naturally [emoji57]

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Searider

it wasn't that one. It was this one raised by Ian Winson on FB after observing very relaxed users on the Hamble last week. Half term 2013.

Padstow RIB tragedy: final report released - Motor Boat & Yachting

Ah ok i assumed there had been another incident not people rehashing previous incidents.
I had read both those articles at the time.
I was interested as we seat people on the suicide seat in our delta and i wondered if there had been a suicide seat incident but neither of those were directly linked to a properly sat on suicide seat