Should there be an alcohol limit for leisure boaters?

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by GuyP

It's a shame that this forum doesn't have any voting functionality, as this would be a great topic to get the forum's view on.

OK, I've added a poll. Let's see how the figures come out.

John

[jonmitch]

As a hepatologist (liver specialist) who spends most of his working life dealing with the very distressing and rising effects of alcohol abuse/excess, maybe I have a slightly different view of the subject.

Firstly, I dont believe in the conspiracy theory that all legislation is out to "prevent fun" as some naiively put it.

Secondly, I would think that if you asked the same poll of most harbour masters, RNLI and coastguard then their opinion would be very different. Or are they all government agents hellbent on destroying fun?

Thirdly, what would those that are against any limit suggest should happen to a boater who does kill/injure someone whilst under the influence? The same as if alcohol wasn't involved?

And yes, I do drink but not whilst at the helm of a 1 1/2 tonne boat travelling at 40mph.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by GuyP

It's a shame that this forum doesn't have any voting functionality, as this would be a great topic to get the forum's view on.

My guess is that 70% would be against any kind of formal legislation.

The fact is, that any death caused by a person in charge of a boat while in British waters can still lead to a prosecution for man slaughter etc. Which, in my view is legislation enough.

Spot on!!!

[Nos4r2]

Legislation is not the key. Education and awareness of consequences is. If legislation worked then there would be no drink driving.

You can't (unfortunately) legislate against having no common sense as there will always be complete idiots. (for example the guy I saw get his divers in on Thursday who then got out a FISHING ROD....!!!)

I wonder how close the correlation between drink drivers and drunken boaters is?

[Biggles]

I don't see any need for any more laws.

They only tend to penalise the law abiding public anyway, because they are the ones that will tend to obey them. And it only encourages the 'Jobsworths' who let a little power go to their head and for whatever reason have no reason !

The laws are already in place. Lets have some proper enforcing of them by the proper parties (Police).

[IBWET]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

but I cannot understand why legislation whch could prevent some pisshead taking you and your family out is so abhorrent to you.

One good reason maybe,is that he thinks it would'nt.

[IBWET]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

Going back to the original thread, I agree with Codprawn, I don't think any legislation would have affected the behaviour in Cowes. They had already been warned by the police - they were driving at night - no lights - no lifejackets. Drunk or Sober they were going on that course of action and the outcome would have probably ended up the same - perhaps worse.

There is an argument for and against legislation. Nobody believes that drink driving a car is a good idea and there is legislation to prevent this and yet people still do it.

I do not drink and drive over the limit in a car or a rib and to be honest, it is fun enough without alcohol. Having said that, at the priory bay meeting I had a pimms and lemonade, who is to say that I wasn't over the limit as there are so many factors that would determine whether I would be over the limit.

However a zero tollerance would be unworkable in some situations. You are at a beach planning to spend the weekend there, have a few beers. You've listened to the forecast and know the tide times and yet you have to move your boat in the middle of the night for whatever reason. Do you:-

a) not have any alcohol - just in case;
b) not move the boat even though this may put yourself or your boat in danger;
c) move the boat and hope that everything will be OK.

Clearly, the most sensible answer is a) but in reality!

Plagiarist

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by jonmitch

As a hepatologist (liver specialist) who spends most of his working life dealing with the very distressing and rising effects of alcohol abuse/excess, maybe I have a slightly different view of the subject.

Firstly, I dont believe in the conspiracy theory that all legislation is out to "prevent fun" as some naiively put it.

Secondly, I would think that if you asked the same poll of most harbour masters, RNLI and coastguard then their opinion would be very different. Or are they all government agents hellbent on destroying fun?

Thirdly, what would those that are against any limit suggest should happen to a boater who does kill/injure someone whilst under the influence? The same as if alcohol wasn't involved?

And yes, I do drink but not whilst at the helm of a 1 1/2 tonne boat travelling at 40mph.

Wise words

And as I said before do you really need the drink to have fun in a boat?
If not then why all the up roar on something that is likely to make the boating world a safer place?

Yes we all should have a choice but when more and more loons, who are not as respectful of others as most of us here, are causing drink related problems them maybe it is time for a change.

[codprawn]

Just one thing - I don't even drink and yet I am still against such laws - the sea is one of the few places I can escape from the real World - if only for a little while!!!

[pathalla]

Wow!! Fast expanding thread!

[bedajim]

Originally Posted by pathalla

Wow!! Fast expanding thread!

American beer is that classed as drinking alcohol

[rickuk3]

On a recent MCA mid season audit of our passenger boat the inspector left us a couple of packs of beer mats, not very suitable to have on the bar of a passenger boat as the bar is what earns the money on trips. We put them onboard our self drive dayboat and it has reduced the amount of excessive drinking by hirers. Excessive drinking seems to be very common on the inland waterways.

[codprawn]

If alcohol was responsible for 1,000 deaths out of 7,000 then I reckon they should ban water because that was responsible for the other 6,000!!

[thorper]

Originally Posted by jonmitch

Thirdly, what would those that are against any limit suggest should happen to a boater who does kill/injure someone whilst under the influence? The same as if alcohol wasn't involved?

I've not been able to get an answer on this one from the anti crowd yet

[Mugshot]

Good thread, some interesting reading from both sides.
I am in no way trying to advocate the use of legislation to limit peoples enjoyment and has been pointed out by some already, I don't actually see that going out and getting wrecked (pun intended) has to go hand in hand with having a good time.
If you don't get drunk and then use your boat, which I can't recall anybody putting their hands up to, then why not try to limit those that do, why shouldn't the authorites have the power to prevent people from endangering themselves and others? I don't buy the "it's the thin end of the wedge" arguement.
I can understand fully the arguements regarding the change in weather conditions requiring an unscheduled move, in such circumstances why can't common sense be applied?
I think we all know that we are talking about the type of person that goes out knowing that he will almost certainly be coming back drunk, but doesn't care.

[IBWET]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

I can understand fully the arguements regarding the change in weather conditions requiring an unscheduled move, in such circumstances why can't common sense be applied?

The law is black and white, it has to be to counter smart lawyers, are you suggesting discretion on the part of the Officer?

I think it would be the thin edge of the wedge, random stopping for drink driving I fully agree with on the road, it’s a totally different scenario to the sea. I for one could envisage marina entrances becoming favourite haunts for patrol boats.

We break the law almost every time we drive a car, from hard rubbers on your wipers to variances in tyre pressures, (dozens of things) so naturally a traffic car could charge you with something if they really looked for it. Luckily they don’t, it’s a balancing act on their part, but the threat is there.

It’s a threat I would rather not have when I’m out on the boat


Instead of addressing the majority, address the minority; if someone dies because of this issue, it’s premeditated; the appropriate charge should apply.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by IBWET

The law is black and white, it has to be to counter smart lawyers, are you suggesting discretion on the part of the Officer?

We break the law almost every time we drive a car, from hard rubbers on your wipers to variances in tyre pressures, (dozens of things) so naturally a traffic car could charge you with something if they really looked for it. Luckily they don’t, it’s a balancing act on their part, but the threat is there.

Yes I am suggesting that discretion could be employed, if we look at the case of the Cowes ribbers, as has already been pointed out, I would personally have considered it preferable for the helmsman to have sobered up somewhere other than A&E, the police had warned him that he was in no condition to leave port but were powerless to stop him.
You appear to be suggesting that traffc police use discretion with drivers.

Originally Posted by IBWET

Instead of addressing the majority, address the minority; if someone dies because of this issue, it’s premeditated; the appropriate charge should apply.

Addressing the minority is precisely what I'm suggesting. I believe it is very much the minority that would be drunk in charge. Do you think that waiting for someone to die before any charge can be brought is acceptable?

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by thorper

I've not been able to get an answer on this one from the anti crowd yet

I would suggest we all have to take reponsibility for our actions, regardless of drink, penalty for harming somone else due to your negligence should be the same.

I dont think that any of the members who are anti legislation advocate drink boating, we are not all planning to drive around plastered. I suspect most like me do not want to see the boating part of society policed and HSE led like so many other parts of society.

So many leisure users actually sleep on their boats that anti drink laws would effectivly prevent them from drinking in their own home when entertaining guests in the evening. We dont want to see a governemnet who has no understanding of leisure boating cast blankets laws on us that have been copied from the roads. I do not want to pay for the policing of a system that many of us believe is unnecassary and I dread to think what would follow after the drink laws.

Coastal waters and roads are very different, they feature different problems and should not be treated in the same way. What is good for one is unlikely to be good for the other. We need to think outside the box. Replicating road laws at sea is wholly inappropraite

[Bigmuz7]

Spot on Doug

[NautiAndNice]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I would suggest we all have to take reponsibility for our actions, regardless of drink, penalty for harming somone else due to your negligence should be the same.

I dont think that any of the members who are anti legislation advocate drink boating, we are not all planning to drive around plastered. I suspect most like me do not want to see the boating part of society policed and HSE led like so many other parts of society.

So many leisure users actually sleep on their boats that anti drink laws would effectivly prevent them from drinking in their own home when entertaining guests in the evening. We dont want to see a governemnet who has no understanding of leisure boating cast blankets laws on us that have been copied from the roads. I do not want to pay for the policing of a system that many of us believe is unnecassary and I dread to think what would follow after the drink laws.

Coastal waters and roads are very different, they feature different problems and should not be treated in the same way. What is good for one is unlikely to be good for the other. We need to think outside the box. Replicating road laws at sea is wholly inappropraite

So what would be a more appropiate solution Doug?

I actually agree with you in principle about individuals taking responsibility for their own actions. Arrangements of this nature are fine for people like you and me - we know our limits (and don't experiment with them whilst in charge of a 250hp boat with 8 people on board) and have experience of seeing the horrific consequences when others get it wrong. However, not everyone operates like this and therein lies the problem. Some people just are not responsible enough to consider factors like these and act accordingly - and it's quite tricky to persuade them to act appropriately, without having to resort to using legislation and enforcement of it to force them to do so.