Should there be an alcohol limit for leisure boaters?

[Doug Stormforce]

Nauti

Before you look for the solution you need to identify the problem.

Is it a fairly isolated incident wher a few p£$% heads who were told by the police not to go afloat and then did and hurt themselves?

Or is there some wider problem?

Accidents do occasionally happen, there are anglers who sit on the river side with a couple of tinnies and slip on a muddy bank.

[BigFella]

I have been reading this thread since it started with interest but have so far refrained from joining it.. but I would like to add a small contribution.

I voted against legislation.. not because I would in any way advocate drinking excessively and being in control of any craft be it car, boat, truck or otherwise. .but because it is my firm belief (and one that has been born out by this discussion in many ways) that the vast majority of people that are involved in boating realise the dangers involved are sensible and level-headed enough to know their own limitations.

One of the main attractions with sailing/boating for me has always been the fact that in general it doesn't attract the kind of ignorance/selfishness and arrogance that are to be found in many many areas of modern society, and that it still maintains an ability to be self-controlling and rely on an individual's common-sense and judgement of a situation.

Now, I know that there are cases such as this one, where the norm is not the rule and common sense does not prevail or is lacking and it is a sad day when things go wrong, but I beleive that we have to find a way to better educate people rather than enforce by rules which are difficult (and expensive) to enforce. I don't know the answer, I only wish I could come up with one, but I am certainly sure that enforcing a drinking limit will not solve the problem... I don't know about you but I have certainly seen many cases in the past (and still do now) of people drinking far in excess of any legal limits and still driving ..(and not just in this country having spent many years in international haulage) these are the type of people that would still do the same if it were a boat rather than a car, regardless of the legality of it. Perhaps in this situation it may have averted what happened as they were spotted, but that isn't always the case.

It seems that this is a debate which will go on for a long time and no doubt there will be many many more incidents of this type before anyone comes up with a solution - legislation or no legislation.

I'll shut up now... thanks for letting me rant

[NautiAndNice]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Nauti

Before you look for the solution you need to identify the problem.

Is ia a fairly isolated incident wher a few p£$% heads who were told by the police not to go afloat and then did and hurt themselves?

Or is there some wider problem?

Accidents do occasionally happen, there are anglers who sit on the river side with a couple of tinnies and slip on a muddy bank.

Agreed.

I think there is a wider problem - alcohol is just part of it. I think poor general safety awareness is closer to the heart of the problem. Education about safety is certainly easily and cheaply available - although the onus is on the boat owner to arrange this and I would suspect that it is generally the more responsible variety of boat owner that will sign themselves up for this in the first place.

I'm not in favour of unnecessary legislation and those that know me will know that I like an adventure and night on the razzle as much as the next! It just worries me that Joe Bloggs with no previous marine experience, but with a few grand to spare, can buy a powerful boat and head off across the Solent without thinking about even the weather/tides, a lifejacket or handheld VHF.

Perhaps compulsory education is the way forward? It seems to be becoming more prevalent ... I know one insurance company we used in the past wanted to see copies of our Level 2 certs before they would insure us. The company we're with now won't insure us to cross the Channel unless we can prove that we have a small outboard as backup or are in the company of another suitably equipped RIB. I know you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink ... but maybe a little education and a horror story or two might trigger a spark of responsibility in some of these people.

[codprawn]

When you look at the statistics it says out of 7,000 drownings booze was a factor in 1,000 of them. of course this means it was NOT a factor in 6,000 - a much higher figure.

The main thing the stats don't show though is what sort of drowning the booze factored in. it doesn't mention boating - I suspect a great many are people jumping into rivers or the sea or swimming whilst drunk which means the number of boating related deaths is tiny.

[NautiAndNice]

Originally Posted by codprawn

When you look at the statistics it says out of 7,000 drownings booze was a factor in 1,000 of them. of course this means it was NOT a factor in 6,000 - a much higher figure.

The main thing the stats don't show though is what sort of drowning the booze factored in. it doesn't mention boating - I suspect a great many are people jumping into rivers or the sea or swimming whilst drunk which means the number of boating related deaths is tiny.

It's not just about deaths though....

[tcwozere]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Remember unlike RIBs many boat owners will actually live on their boats for a while. Imagine being securly anchored or attached to a mooring buoy for a whole weekend. A skipper has a few drinks and retires to his bunk. Then wakes up to discover another yacht has dragged his anchor in the Force 7 that has sprung up. What is he supposed to do???

This situation is highly unlikely to occur to a car driver so why try and apply the same laws?

Unlikely to happen to a car driver, but what about a camper van driver, or someone towing a caravan?? Imagine the scenario, Mr and Mrs Flatcap have decided to spend a quiet weekend exploring Stratford Upon Avon.. Seeing as they are both well away from the twitching curtains of their neighbours, they decide to have a few glasses of wine, which lead to a few more.. After retiring to bed, they are awoken by the sound of another camper revving their engine as they try to tow their second home away from the rapidly rising water using their trusty Kia Rio..

So, what does Mr Flatcap do? Both are over the drink drive limit, but the water is soon going to turn their little palace on wheels into a little palace on water..

Similar situation as your Codders, one places the skipper in a predicament, the other places the soon to be skipper in a predicament..

Perhaps those who are in charge of a vehicle, (any sort of vehcle,) should take their responsibility seriously, and avoid placing themselves in a position where they may have to break the law..

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Accidents do occasionally happen, there are anglers who sit on the river side with a couple of tinnies and slip on a muddy bank.

True, but they are not usually doing 30+ knots at the time and they are unlikely to do too much damage to my boat or injury to my family or myself if they managed to somehow skim across the water and collide with me.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I would suggest we all have to take reponsibility for our actions

In an ideal world this would be the case, the unfortunate fact is that some individuals are irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I do not want to pay for the policing of a system that many of us believe is unnecassary and I dread to think what would follow after the drink laws.

I don't want to have to pay, nor would I like to see anyone else pay, with something far more valuable than money just because some people believe it is an infringment of their civil liberties to be prevented from doing whatever they like whenever they like and bugger the consequences. It strikes me that some people consider it an attack on their machismo if they are restricted from getting drunk.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Coastal waters and roads are very different, they feature different problems and should not be treated in the same way. What is good for one is unlikely to be good for the other. We need to think outside the box. Replicating road laws at sea is wholly inappropraite

Whilst the mediums are significantly different many road laws can be applicable to the sea, insurance of your vehicle, ensuring your vehicle is in a fit state for use, making sure your safety equipment is in a fit state of repair, driving appropriately for the conditions, sticking to the speed limit if the fuzz are around, the benefits of learning how to drive before you're let loose on your own. I don't see it as that much of a leap of the imagination to see the benefits of not allowing inebriated individuals behind the wheel.

[codprawn]

Isn't it strange that depsite a raft of new laws covering all sorts of things crime continues to rise? i suspect that a drunk boating law will be about as much help as ASBOS..........

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Isn't it strange that depsite a raft of new laws covering all sorts of things crime continues to rise? i suspect that a drunk boating law will be about as much help as ASBOS..........

I would suggest that the average boater tends to be a little higher on the evolutionary scale than the average hoodie and is therefore a little less likely to consider a drink driving conviction as an opportunity for bragging rights over his peers, unlike an ASBO which so clearly is for the people that earn them.
The biggest criticism I hear or read concerning new laws which are introduced is that they appear to be protecting the criminal and the rights of the protagonist rather than the victim, maybe thats why crime continues to rise.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

I would suggest that the average boater tends to be a little higher on the evolutionary scale than the average hoodie and is therefore a little less likely to consider a drink driving conviction as an opportunity for bragging rights over his peers, unlike an ASBO which so clearly is for the people that earn them.
The biggest criticism I hear or read concerning new laws which are introduced is that they appear to be protecting the criminal and the rights of the protagonist rather than the victim, maybe thats why crime continues to rise.

In that case the "average" boater isn't going to drink to excess in the first place so why do we need new laws?

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by codprawn

In that case the "average" boater isn't going to drink to excess in the first place so why do we need new laws?

That doesn't add up at all, you don't get ASBOs for drinking, hoodies don't generally boat. The distinction I was making was between the way in which each offence is viewed by the people you would generally associate with. I really don't know what you are talking about.

[Doug Stormforce]

Mugshot

A long reply deserves a long reply

Originally Posted by Mugshot

True, but they are not usually doing 30+ knots at the time and they are unlikely to do too much damage to my boat or injury to my family or myself if they managed to somehow skim across the water and collide with me.

Do you have any evidence of this problem, how many cases a year are there of a drunken powerboater doing 30 knots and harming other peoples propertyor in fact other people who are not on board his/her craft?

Originally Posted by Mugshot

In an ideal world this would be the case, the unfortunate fact is that some individuals are irresponsible.

This is a classic labour government approach (im not trying to start a new thread on politiical parties), rather than teach people how to be responsible for themselves we treat them all as irresponsible and take away their right to think for themselves, this is how we have ended up with crazy H&S and so much litigation.

I belive most people have got basic common sense, many of us need pointed in the right direction now an again but we dont need someone to dictate how we live. Encouraging good practice is a far more effective than regulating. It may intrest you to know we have the second lowest accident fatality rate per participants in watersports in the developed world. We are second only to New Zealand who also do not have compulsary licensing

Originally Posted by Mugshot

I don't want to have to pay, nor would I like to see anyone else pay, with something far more valuable than money just because some people believe it is an infringment of their civil liberties to be prevented from doing whatever they like whenever they like and bugger the consequences.

I refer you to my earlier question. Is there a problem or just a perceived problme by people who assume all of the horrific accidents that are occuring on the roads are also occuring at sea? It easy to suggest people may die if we dont do something BUT are people actuially being killed by these "drunken boaters"?

Originally Posted by Mugshot

It strikes me that some people consider it an attack on their machismo if they are restricted from getting drunk.

You may be right, some people may think like this- are you going to re educate them for the benefit off society by regulating them.

Originally Posted by Mugshot

Whilst the mediums are significantly different many road laws can be applicable to the sea, insurance of your vehicle, ensuring your vehicle is in a fit state for use, making sure your safety equipment is in a fit state of repair, driving appropriately for the conditions, sticking to the speed limit if the fuzz are around, the benefits of learning how to drive before you're let loose on your own. I don't see it as that much of a leap of the imagination to see the benefits of not allowing inebriated individuals behind the wheel.

Im afraid you have blown it here for me, you are effectivly saying that you belive we should be subject to all sorts of laws and in the same sentance saying you only stick to the speed limit if the fuzz are around. If that is the case what is the point of making safety related laws to start with?

Not looking for a fight but intrested how you validate your comments

[Rogue Wave]

[QUOTE=Doug Stormforce;214723]


This is a classic labour government approach (im not trying to start a new thread on politiical parties), rather than teach people how to be responsible for themselves we treat them all as irresponsible and take away their right to think for themselves, this is how we have ended up with crazy H&S and so much litigation.

I believe the reason why we have Health and safety Regulation is as a direct result of the recomendations of the Cullen Report into the Piper Alpha Tragedy.

This was probably before your time but an Oil platform caught fire, and because production was more important than safety. The overall manager of the field refused to shut down the flow of oil from two other platforms to the burning one. He waited to get the OK from his boss on the beach ,who was not answering his phone (pre mobile) and the fire kept getting it's fuel at high pressure resulting in 170 men being aspyxiated or incinerated and hundreds being at risk in the rescue process.

I for one am glad that we have a Health and Safety legislation if it means I don't get toasted at work.

When one of your lads is operating a power drill, grinding whel or stike tool do they were goggles? if you find them not doing so d'ya make em put goggles on? If this is so the do you do it because you're a good caring guy or because the HSE and compensation lawyers will bite you in the arse? or both?. In my case it's both but the legislation probably wins.

Agred some of the people involved should have been traffic wardens, but whilst people continue to die at work they still got a job to do. One thing you can guarentee is that the workplace is a damned site safer nowadays than it was ten years ago?

Get back to drnking . which I like by the way, I presume you respect the RYA's laws about instructors not drinking during the course, in which case explain to me why a competent experienced instructor shouldn't be allowed a drink while on the water but a guy imaybe a novice in his twin 250 hp rib powerboat should!

I like having a few when I am out on my boat but would support legislation and comply with it? Presently as has been recently proved by the Hampshire Constabulary I can have two Magners and still pass a breathalyser. 5 more and I'd have trouble driving a car and five more after that I have trouble staying upright. So whats wrong with legilation stopping me at two when every once of my moral fibre says go on have a few more

Any idea why commercial ships are dry and boozing is a sacking offence? Look up Exxon Valdiz. Till then you could drink away on the High seas quite freely.

Taken your comments about speed related laws, I love driving fast and am quite good at it, but when I first moved to Southampton I was struck by the amount of flowers tied to lamposts and thought that a lot of people must be dying on the city's roads. Since then they have intoduced Speed Cameras throughout Southampton which has effectively slowed the traffic and guess what theres not so many flowers on lamposts. Given the choice of mowing a child down at 30 rather than 40 I'd take the thirty opttion. But truly would hope never to be in that situation!

So yes we all slow down when we see a cop car or a camera but enough of em bring the road speeds down and make them a safer place. I was approached by a fellow instructor about 8 months ago who'm had eight points on his license and had been caught by a Camera and wanted to pay me to take the points for him, What a twat! I would have thought the eight points would have been enough to cool things down but hey obviously not! Surely the point of regulation is to deter irresponsibilty and set standards of safety, behaviour etc.

[Mugshot]

Hi Doug,
I'll avoid the "quote unquote" otherwise we'll end up taking up a page each and instead attempt to summarise whilst answering the points you raised.
My experience of boating is from an area which is, to the best of my knowledge, significantly less congested than the one you are used to using. However even in this relatively quiet back water I have been witness to or have heard first hand of people falling off their boats, ripping the prop off their boats and having to be towed in, capsizing with passengers resulting in a search and rescue, falling over in the back of their boat leaving the helm unmanned, passing out in their boats and drifting down river and grounding 'til they come round the next morning, all because they were drunk, all in the space of one season and thats only the ones I'm aware of which I can immediately recall. I'm sure you would have many more examples.
The statisics may indicate that relatively few are injured as a result of this, but I don't see that as a reason to allow it to continue unchecked. Pleasure boating as an industry is I believe growing, incidents will increase accordingly. Why do we need to wait until a problem is at such a level that the solution will be dictated by government including draconian measures and enforced codes of conduct across the whole spectrum of boating.

You have mentioned education being the way forward but I can't remember seeing how you plan to implement this, I would educate with a bloody big stick, not really the Labour way. What would your approach be?

You stated that it was "wholly inappropriate" to replicate laws which apply to the road at sea, I was pointing out that it isn't all that different really. From your profile I assume that you train people in various aspects of safe and practical boating with a pass certificate at the end of it if appropriate, it's not really that much of a leap of the imagination to compare this to a driving licence although not compulsary. I am NOT saying that they should be compulsary, I was answering your "wholly inappropriate" comment.
My comment about the police was a little tongue in cheek, had I said "abiding by the speed limit" then I would have been throwing a nice big bone to certain dogs who would have immediately asked if I ever sped in a 30 zone, so I used a different tactic to see who'd bite.

I may have missed a particularly salient point which you wanted me to answer from your post, please point it out if I have.

[Tims Osprey]

Interesting point there Doug about the uk and Newzealand having the lowest accident fatality rate and both states not having compulsory licensing. well if it aint broke then don't try and fix it! though thats left me even more lost for words why people would try and find reasons that we should change things and want to adopt a more legislated approach to are favorite past time??
Although i don't like to think it i get the notion that most people don't seem to really mind or care about having yet more restrictions implemented upon them, maybe their just not clued up enough? i mean where has peoples sense of freedom gone today we need to look at the bigger picture before ticking all of the boxes in favour of yet more laws.
Its not about not caring or being irresponsible its about valuing our freedom, and keeping the sea a free place, whats all this talk of it being like a road and comparing it to things that happen with guns and stuff, please give us a break fellas! and at least give me more creditable examples before i even begin to think differently.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by Tims Osprey

whats all this talk of it being like a road and comparing it to things that happen with guns and stuff, please give us a break fellas! and at least give me more creditable examples before i even begin to think differently.

I think the analogy with the road law was originally cited by someone from the anti legislation side.
Where is the post about guns? I've missed it.
Which examples are you discrediting exactly?

[Tims Osprey]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

I think the analogy with the road law was originally cited by someone from the anti legislation side.
Where is the post about guns? I've missed it.
Which examples are you discrediting exactly?

Thats maybe so, but besides my point, the point is that the pro legislation side are commonly referring to implementing road type law and order to our sea's immaterial to who mentioned it first as an example. There was something mentioned about guns on the streets in an earlier post but to be quite honest i cant even be bothered to look it up, i'm sure some meticulous person will oblige though and try and quote me wrong. As for which examples being discreditable, it's more of the repetition of worse case scenarios that are becoming boring and predictable to hear and basing grounds for more policy and regulation around them.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by Tims Osprey

Thats maybe so, but besides my point, the point is that the pro legislation side are commonly referring to implementing road type law and order to our sea's immaterial to who mentioned it first as an example.

No they're not, what they are saying is that they don't think its acceptable for people to be allowed to get as drunk as they want before they drive their boat home.

Originally Posted by Tims Osprey

There was something mentioned about guns on the streets in an earlier post but to be quite honest i cant even be bothered to look it up, i'm sure some meticulous person will oblige though and try and quote me wrong.

Thats what the quote button is for Tim, the onus is on you to find it, I'm not suggesting you're wrong but it's up to you to post the quote.

Originally Posted by Tims Osprey

As for which examples being discreditable, it's more of the repetition of worse case scenarios that are becoming boring and predictable to hear and basing grounds for more policy and regulation around them.

I find it rather boring that anybody that would like to see a restriction on the amount of alcohol which people are permitted to consume before taking the helm, is immediately labelled as some lilly livered liberal lefty, with the inference that we are immediately in support of a raft of legislation which affects all aspects of boating.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

Thats what the quote button is for Tim, the onus is on you to find it, I'm not suggesting you're wrong but it's up to you to post the quote.

Maybe he can't find it cos it's not there? A few of our posts seem to have succumbed to the "iron fist" of god..............

[Tims Osprey]

Most people, pro or anti legislation find it totally unacceptable i am sure, that other people might be in control of boats while over the limit! or being a danger to others without touching a drop for that matter, thats not the argument here though is it. Do you really think that i would waste my time sticking up for some nobber that jumped in a boat, got pissed crashed into somebody and caused them injury, i would say if he's guilty then throw the book at him! laws are already in place that deal with such cases though so why worry? I can only assume that people who want system change have a view that the present one does not work? am i missing something here? I have to be honest though something that does concern me a bit sometimes is people being in control of 30ft+ class cruisers that have little or no experience with no qualifications, sometimes it can be difficult to spot small craft from the bridge?