Thames Byelaws - have your say - Page 4

Neil Harvey · 18 May 2009, 22:29

The commercial vessel 12kn speed limit is already in place.

Given the follining comment in a PLA document on the website, I would be surprised if pleasure vessels are already restricted, I hope not:-

"The new draft Thames Byelaws 2008: The PLA has received feedback following public consultation and will publishing these shortly together with PLA response to them. Most of the feedback has been about the proposed new speed limit in London both for and against. The draft byelaws will be revised following consultation and presented to the PLA board before going to wider consultation by Dft. Once this is complete the draft byelaws will be confirmed by Dft and the existing byelaws revoked. The new byelaws are not expected to be in place now until end of 2009."

Tideway · 18 May 2009, 22:33

Yup, knew about the previous 12knots limit between the bridges for the commercial guys. But the NOM that was emailed around today referred to the 12kts above CG pier as of now.

t

PS. PLA website does not seem to have the NOM that I am referring to on it yet. I am on their email list for these, so they may have sent it out before they updated their site.

Neil Harvey · 18 May 2009, 22:42

oh no,

just found this in a doc dated May 9th

"The introduction of new 12 knot speed limit between Margaretness and Wandsworth, with provision for a relaxation on an individual craft basis following risk assessment."

But it does not really state when from...

http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/R...h_May_2008.pdf

codprawn · 19 May 2009, 00:29

Scum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's an extra 9 miles at the most inefficient speed you can have in a RIB - and that's as long as they stick at Cherry pier!!!

Tideway · 19 May 2009, 11:29

Notice to Mariners12 of 2009 Lower Pool to Wandsworth Reach - Advisory 12 Knot Speed Limit.

Over the past eighteen months the Port of London Authority has been reviewing the Port of London River Byelaws 1978 (as amended) in consultation with river users. As part of this process Byelaw 48 (Speed Limits) has been carefully re-examined and it is proposed to introduce a blanket 12 Kt speed limit between Cherry Garden Pier and Wandsworth Bridge in the new Port of London Thames Byelaws (2009).

The risks of collision or contact resulting from growing freight and passenger traffic, the increasing speed differential between different types of vessels and the major construction works in the area, requires action to be taken pending the introduction of the new Thames Byelaws.

An advisory speed limit of 12 Kt between Cherry Garden Pier and Wandsworth Bridge is therefore introduced with immediate effect.

Safety is the responsibility of all those navigating on and using the River, for whatever purpose. All mariners should recognise the significant risks that navigating in central London at high speed brings, and to act responsibly by adhering to the new advisory speed limit.

Attention is also drawn to The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (as amended) Rule 6 (Safe Speed) and the Port of London Act 108 (General rules for navigation) which provides:

A Master who navigates his vessel on the Thames:

a without due care and attention; or
b in a manner liable to injure or endanger persons, other vessels, the banks of the Thames (whether above or below mean high water level) or any structure or installation in or beside the Thames;

shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine upon conviction.

Date Published: 18-May-09

Ends

Owners, Agents and Charterers should ensure that the contents of this Notice are made known to the masters or persons in charge of their vessels or craft.

codprawn · 19 May 2009, 14:30

So it's only advisory at the moment but looks like it will come into force soon!!!

Will the Thames clipper etc have an exemption? That kind of boat caused the trouble in the first place!!!

CJL · 19 May 2009, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Will the Thames clipper etc have an exemption? That kind of boat caused the trouble in the first place!!!

EXACTLY!

But they create revenue for the port and the PLA so it's completely different

CJL · 19 May 2009, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Harvey

"The introduction of new 12 knot speed limit between Margaretness and Wandsworth, with provision for a relaxation on an individual craft basis following risk assessment."

I'm looking forward to making my application!

CJL · 03 June 2009, 21:17

After using the Freedom of Information Act

I requested the following;

Description of the information requested:
I recently took part in the Port of London Authority's informal consultation on new bylaws for the tidal River Thames. Since the consultation process ended there has been a formal response by the PLA but after my most recent request for a progress update i was advised that it has now been passed to the DFT for consideration.

Consequently I would be grateful if you advise me on
a) what "consideration" involves
b) when the dft will have finished this "consideration" process
c) what steps will be taken after the "consideration" process

Many thanks,

CJL

Today the following info has come from the Department of Transport;

Dear Mr CJL,

Port of London Authority - Thames Bye-laws

Thank you for your enquiry into the status of the application by the Port of London Authority for bye-laws for tidal River Thames.

I hope the following answers your questions:

a) The 'consideration' or consultation process that the Ports Division of the Department for Transport carries out involves internal consultation with interested stakeholders including the Maritime & Coastguard Agency; Trinity House and the Royal Yachting Association. Consultation with the Department's legal advisors will also be required to ensure what is being proposed in the bye-laws is not outside the powers available to the Port of London Authority in their legislation.

b) After the consultation process has been completed, the bye-laws will be sealed (signed) by the applicant and a notice(s) advertising the bye-laws will be placed in a newspaper(s) circulating widely in the area of the application.

c) Any objection received as a result of the advertisement will be passed to the applicants for them to resolve. The Secretary of State will proceed to make the bye-laws when the objection is withdrawn. The Secretary of State can determine an application if objections have not been withdrawn.

You might be interested to know that at the time of you writing, the application for the bye-laws had not been received.

Yours sincerely,

Linturn Hopkins

So it looks like the PLA are going to try and have an advisory speed limit in place rather than us the bylaw system?

Glad that's all cleared up!!

CJL

codprawn · 03 June 2009, 23:10

And if it's a byelaw similar to windemere's then will it really be enforcable anyway?

CJL · 04 June 2009, 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

And if it's a byelaw similar to windemere's then will it really be enforcable anyway?

OK -

Quote:

Notice to Mariners12 of 2009 Lower Pool to Wandsworth Reach - Advisory 12 Knot Speed Limit.

An advisory speed limit of 12 Kt between Cherry Garden Pier and Wandsworth Bridge is therefore introduced with immediate effect.

Safety is the responsibility of all those navigating on and using the River, for whatever purpose. All mariners should recognise the significant risks that navigating in central London at high speed brings, and to act responsibly by adhering to the new advisory speed limit.

Attention is also drawn to The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (as amended) Rule 6 (Safe Speed) and the Port of London Act 108 (General rules for navigation) which provides:

A Master who navigates his vessel on the Thames:

a without due care and attention; or
b in a manner liable to injure or endanger persons, other vessels, the banks of the Thames (whether above or below mean high water level) or any structure or installation in or beside the Thames;

shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine upon conviction.

Date Published: 18-May-09
.

So does this mean if I break an advisory speed limit I will be effectively "fitted up" for driving "without due care and attention; or in a manner liable to injure or endanger persons, other vessels, the banks of the Thames (whether above or below mean high water level) or any structure or installation in or beside the Thames;"

Cause this NTM kind of suggest I will be.

CJL

John Kennett · 04 June 2009, 09:48

Speeds in excess of the advisory limit would probably add weight to a prosecution for "without due care and attention etc", but I doubt very much whether they would get a conviction just for going at more than 12 knots.

We do need to be aware of the limit and keep it in mind though. If we choose to go at speeds over 12 knots then we need to make sure that it's a considered decision. This could turn out to be an excellent compromise.

I would still be perfectly happy to go well above this speed in some places, but if you do then make extra sure that you do it carefully.

I expect that in practice the PLA will behave as if it is a byelaw and generally try to enforce it. It will be interesting to see the approach that patrols take.

John Kennett · 09 July 2009, 09:57

Some encouraging news on Boatmad from someone who has had a chat about it with Thames Div:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade

Hello all.
TO who it may interest, i have spoken to the thames river police today about the 12 knot advisory limit.
This is governed by the PLA ( port of london authority).
It is aimed at the large high speed passenger clippers that use the river.
According do the guy i spoke to it is all about the wash that these craft produce. They are also causing problems with moorings.
If any one wants to use the river for a run, common sense is everything and the collisions at sea act are what to follow.
There is no speed limit after Putney bridge down stream, of course wreckless and dangerous behaviour will get you nicked.
So as long as safety is first, all is ok. I would reccomend wearing life jackets on the river so if you do get an ID check which is very common near westminster, the police will see you are responsible, and they will be ok with you.

All the best and i hope this may be of interest and help.
Paul

Observer · 09 July 2009, 12:15

I've been out on the tidal Thames on a number of occasions in the last two months, including runs from Tower Bridge to Chelsea after dark. I've had no problem at all running at cruising speed of ~15kts and more in the quiet sections (e.g. from Albert Bridge to Wandsworth)

BTW, the (enforceable) speed limit is 8kts above Wandsworth Bridge, not Putney.

Bern Hanreck · 13 August 2009, 10:07

" Three-yearly Review
Following extensive consultation within the port community, the Port of London Authority (PLA) has completed its scheduled 3-year review of General Directions for Navigation in the Port of London. During the consultation process, a number of responses were received, duly considered, and where appropriate, incorporated into the revised Directions. The Chamber of Shipping and the PLA Board have formally approved the new General Directions. "

amongst others.......

" GD 34: Speed Restrictions – New General Direction. Introduces the requirement to comply with any speed restriction or speed reduction imposed by the Harbourmaster "

so there you are.......clear as mud in my opinion !

codprawn · 13 August 2009, 22:13

So does that mean that all fun has now been banned???

And how does it effect the commercial Rib ride people?

AllenF · 13 August 2009, 22:26

ADVISORY is just that advice
COMPULSARY means you gotta do it
like we say we ADVISE you to wear a kill cord and life jacket
or are they now gonna stitch us for
A 15 knots
then
B undue care and attention (no life jacket)
C careless or dangerous (no kill cord attatched)
what a complete bunch of pen pushing TWATS
WHY DONT THEY TAKE A REALITY CHECK AND GET WITH THE REAL WORLD
If life was as easy as they make out in the book then i dont wanna play I LIKE MY COMPLEX LIFE.
Why dont these people F'/k off leave us alone and go after the stupid assholes on motorbikes that do 80 mph in a 30 ON THE WRONG SIDE NEAR A SCHOOL and get away with it because wait for it
the speed camera van (oops sorry the saftey camera team) couldnt read the front number plate as he came towards them (DUUUUUHHHHHH motorbikes dont have a front plate do they IDIOTS COMPLETE IDIOTS)
OR we could just say we noteeeey undee standee eeengleeesh then we`ll get away with it
(probly get powerboat 2 lessons so we can speed properly )

Bern Hanreck · 07 May 2010, 20:05

1) There's another public consultancy meeting next week.........

Public Meeting about the Thames
HQS Wellington – Wednesday, 19 May 2010

Our next public meeting to discuss current and future matters related to the tidal Thames will be held onboard HQS Wellington (moored at Temple Stairs, Victoria Embankment, London, WC2R 2PN) on Wednesday, 19 May.

2) The PLA have issued a new recreational guide for leisure users who may be intending to visit " Old Father Thames " . well worth a read for any boaters intending to visit .

Other interesting stuff here as well

Checkout http://www.pla.co.uk/

Observer · 16 August 2011, 13:17

The new Byelaws, which include 12kts speed limit between Wandsworth Bridge and Margaretness, have been formally adopted by the PLA and will come into force on approval by the Transport Secretary. Objections can be submitted up to 2 September.

See Thames Byelaws 2011 > Home Page

vjmehra · 22 September 2011, 19:53

Updated link to the full proposal:

http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/T...14-07-2011.pdf

Any idea when this comes in, as it seems there is little point owning a RIB past that date...