Thank f***k for iphones

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by kerny

I guess then that if you hit fog the best thing to do would be to drop anchor and sit it out .
Or is that the wrong thing to do.

You could be there a LONG time though.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by tonto

I have been sailing/Navigating at sea on large vessels for 28 years, and only in the last 10 years have we used electronic charts (and even today our primary means is STILL paper charts)
I guess we must have been lucky then

A major difference being, you guys on the 'Big Trawlers' have acres of the very best nav gear and a team of highly trained/experienced guys. All info can be then assessed, reassessed and cross referenced using multiple pieces of equipment.

A bloke on a rib my have a small GPS screen and his Wife and kids to worry about.

[willk]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

People like Sir Cloudesley Shovell for instance: Cloudesley Shovell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir Cloudsley's primary problem was that he was an Ass. In mitigation, his fleet had been out of sight of land, in a storm, in the days when "longitude" was more of a concept, than a given. Had they lost sight of land in fog, I THINK they might just have known what way home was

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

We hit f**cking rocks or each other and sank, that's what we did. That (and the U boats) would account for the 250 000 odd charted wrecks (all skippered by "proper seamen") around our coastline....

You have oversimplified P-D (for effect, I'm sure ) but I think it wouldn't be fair to mention the other reasons too:
Drunkeness (a very common problem)
Incompetency
Storm
Structural or Mechanical Failure - covers a multitude of things.

The above list accounted for a very large proportion of losses in the Pre-electronic days. Come to think of it, the same could be said IN the electronic era too. They're still sinking for those reasons.

I can see both sides of this argument, but I have to say that while steering to compass in fog IS tricky, it is a skill quickly picked up and it does work. It's a skill worth developing, something that training AND practice will do. Obviously the safety issue is important and it does depend where the fog is! If it's between Ireland and the UK, then the risks are reduced, if you're in Milford Haven - then it's tricky!

I've often been in fog, BTW, but I've never suddenly found myself in it. It's not THAT sneaky!

[bartiny]

Originally Posted by Mollers

A major difference being, you guys on the 'Big Trawlers' have acres of the very best nav gear and a team of guys. All info can be then assessed, reassessed and cross referenced using multiple pieces of equipment.

A bloke on a rib my have a small GPS screen and his Wife and kids to worry about.

Very well said

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

You could be there a LONG time though.

I always keep my on board

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by willk

If it's between Ireland and the UK, then the risks are reduced, if you're in Milford Haven - then it's tricky!

Agreed, offshore, fog is not such a biggy. Inshore, crab pots a 55000 tonnes of parked steel are.

Fal Bay is the NCP for N. Atlantic shipping waiting for a job.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by willk

I've often been in fog, BTW, but I've never suddenly found myself in it. It's not THAT sneaky!

It can be-I remember sailing off Hengistbury Head when I was 12 or 13 in a club race to yarmouth when the boat ahead suddenly disappeared into a localised fog bank kicked up by the ledge as we watched.

The vis wasn't great that day anyway-2 to 3 miles so it wasn't obvious.

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Unless you are keeping a meticulous log (yeah right) & know where you are & mark it every minute (on a 20knot+ RIB passage, give me strength) If it suddenly all goes dark grey you're fecked, anyone who thinks other wise is kidding themselves. Knowing you're lost is arguably safer than the bloke carrying charts who thinks he knows where he is.
I'll get me coat

I would suggest to all those who believe that being out in fog is the "end of the world" in terms of navigation should do a RYA Intermediate or Advanced Powerboat course to learn how to use the "tools of the trade" which I and others always carry - and not in my armchair - although the Scot seats do have that feel


My trusty chart table

So what again is the excuse for not having charts, pilotage notes, a handheld compass and a plotter on board then

BTW FI I did a 40 mile passage last July from Cushendall to LochRanza in "fog" and managed not to hit a rock or anything else - good luck or good training - you decide

Remember what I always say

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

I have been sailing/Navigating at sea on large vessels for 28 years,

Exactly, not bouncing about in a RIB, piss wet through. No doubt you were in a nice warm bridge with a chart table. Last time I checked my RIB, some terwat had nicked the sextant, chronometer, lead line, chart cabinet.................................

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

It can be-I remember sailing off Hengistbury Head.

Hengistbury Head is a bitch for that.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

.. some terwat had nicked the sextant, chronometer, lead line, chart cabinet.............

Really?!! Bastard!

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Mollers

A major difference being, you guys on the 'Big Trawlers' have acres of the very best nav gear and a team of highly trained/experienced guys. All info can be then assessed, reassessed and cross referenced using multiple pieces of equipment.

A bloke on a rib my have a small GPS screen and his Wife and kids to worry about.

I agree to some extent, but as I said it is only in the last few years that electronic charts have been routinely used, and still they are not our 1st means of navigating.

As for the very latest Nav equipment, I think you are giving us too much credit.
My last vessel, which I was on for 6 years from 2005 to 2011 had a radar that was only just compliant with regs, and was obsolete after the 1st year, the highly experienced team, is only as good as the training that we do on board, and some of the juniors are fresh out of college, plus we have different nationalities, and you have to trust that the standard of educating a Filipino is as good as a European?
The electronic charts used to freeze routinely, normally when we were in busy shipping lanes, and are reliant on GPS, which can be, and is, jammed, and disrupted in certain areas.

We still steer by compass when near land, and plot positions on the charts, and the major difference is that we do have radar, but then that is not brilliant at picking up small targets.

FWIW the echo sounder is an underused tool for navigating, as it can be used to indicate when you are getting in shallow water, and as a cross reference to your dead reckoning.

I agree that navigating solo is tricky, but you have a throttle, and can always put it to idle while you assess the situation, if it is too deep to anchor, you are not really in danger, and as for having the wife and kids, they can help by listening etc.

I have 40 or so people, plus the financial survival of a multinational corporation (with 50,000 employees) affected if I screw up badly so not much pressure there then!

[GJ0KYZ]

Fog can indeed be sneaky. I remember one trip to Guernsey where we encountered a thick fog bank south of Etac off Sark. The visibilty was terrible; I had to slow down to 30kts at one point. As for not having paper charts and associated 'tools of the trade' on board, well, no excuse really, it's just that I rely wholly on my radar and plotter. They can fail of course but it's not that likely that they will and they're a lot better at navigating than I am with a chart and a set of dividers. Anyway, most of my travels are into unchartered waters (literally) so I'm used to winging it. I also disagree with your "maximum preparation = maximum fun" adage. Putting aside obvious safety considerations I have found the best days out are those that involve something spontaneous and unplanned.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

I had to slow down to 30kts at one point.

30knts!! We were bricking it at 3knts in the bay!

[Adamn]

Fog can appear really quickly! It helps to know the weather conditions that cause a vast majority of sea fog. I was out in the Falmouth bay a couple of years ago around Easter on a sunny fairly warm humid day with little or no wind. I was only in my SIB at the time just off the Manicle Bell doing some line fishing when a light SE breeze set in and brought a wall of dense fog in towards me at a steady rate.
I stayed ahead of it just but it moved swiftly blotting out everything. The cold water and humid air are a classic set up for sea fog especially when you pick up an onshore wind.

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by Mollers

30knts!! We were bricking it at 3knts in the bay!

I keed, I keed....

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Exactly, not bouncing about in a RIB, piss wet through. No doubt you were in a nice warm bridge with a chart table. Last time I checked my RIB, some terwat had nicked the sextant, chronometer, lead line, chart cabinet.................................

My Rib doesnt have a sextant, but it does have a chronometer (wristwatch) leadline (fishing rod, fish finder, echo sounder) and chart cabinet (paper charts for the area) which I would assume most others have.

According to your rationale, if you are in fog and have no GPS, (the yanks might turn it off, it might break etc etc)then just curl up into a ball and do nothing, or commit Hari Kari, cos you ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!

Great stretegy

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by willk

It's not THAT sneaky!

It is see, got it?! Maybe it's just the Irish stuff that wanders about in a bit of a, err fog.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Mollers

30knts!! We were bricking it at 3knts in the bay!

Aye, but then YOU weren't fishing like GJ0KYZ

Originally Posted by Mollers

It is see, got it?! Maybe it's just the Irish stuff that wanders about in a bit of a, err fog.

Hmmm! My worst fogs have been of the obvious Scroatish and Manxy kinds - they were kind enough to present themselves either in situ from "the off" or as a gradual loss of the visible coastline. The lesser Irish fogs have been no more than an inconvenience...

[willk]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

Anyway, most of my travels are into unchartered waters (literally) so I'm used to winging it.

I'd well believe it - who would run a Charter Boat in there when the local taxis already have Avranches so well covered?

Wings would have been handy, BTW