That Knot Climbers Use

[Andy Moore]

What is that knot climbers use to make a bight called?

[David G]

Bowline?

[Andy Moore]

Originally Posted by Orville

Bowline?

Nope. That's why I ask.

[Jimbo]

Alpine Butterfly is one I use:

http://www.animatedknots.com/alpineb...matedknots.com

[Andy Moore]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Alpine Butterfly is one I use:

http://www.animatedknots.com/alpineb...matedknots.com

Thanks but I think this is the one I have seen on TV:

http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8fol...matedknots.com

[Simon B]

So which knot ar you still after?

[v666]

Can I ask what you want to use said knot for?

[Andy Moore]

Originally Posted by v666

Can I ask what you want to use said knot for?

It was simply out of interest. I was wondering why a climber would use an alternative knot to a bowline for making a 'loop'.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Andy Moore

It was simply out of interest. I was wondering why a climber would use an alternative knot to a bowline for making a 'loop'.

I think one of the main reasons is that it is very easy to check if it is tied correctly. You need a bit more practice to spot a dodgy bowline than a dodgy figure of 8.

In my experience a figure of eight is also easier to untie than a bowline after a big shock load.

Climbers do still occassionally use bowlines but they are not derreguer (sp?) - I think I remember being told that their was a possibility for a bowline to capsize and then come loose although have never seen it happen - so that could be "urban myth".

[RichardB]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I think one of the main reasons is that it is very easy to check if it is tied correctly. You need a bit more practice to spot a dodgy bowline than a dodgy figure of 8.

In my experience a figure of eight is also easier to untie than a bowline after a big shock load.

Climbers do still occassionally use bowlines but they are not derreguer (sp?) - I think I remember being told that their was a possibility for a bowline to capsize and then come loose although have never seen it happen - so that could be "urban myth".

Figure of 8 is acutually stronger than a bowline (well, it reduces the strength of rope less anyway) and shouln't capsize (but it's still thought good practice to put a half hitch on the bitter end).

But for marine use, a fig 8 can't be tied quickly or as easily (unless you can tie it on a bight). Bowlines can (should???) be tied one handed. Perhaps most importantly, put a fig 8 under sustained (not sure about shock) heavy load and it really locks up so solid that it's impossible to undo. I've never had major problems with bowlines even when they have been holding many tons of load.

[v666]

I used a figure of 8 rather than bowline to tie on to, as during the course of a day the bowline would often work loose.

If I were to use a knot for high load that I needed to undo later then it would be a bowline, but if my life depended on it I would use a figure of 8.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by v666

I used a figure of 8 rather than bowline to tie on to, as during the course of a day the bowline would often work loose.

This is exactly why climbers don't like bowlines - they can shake loose. Most sailors will recommend that gib sheets tied with a bowline should have long tails (bitter end) to prevent shaking loose. Either that or use an additional means (e.g. overhand not back onto working line) to prevent it shaking loose

As RichardB says under constant (and even heavy) load a bowline is fine and will undo easily. But it does stand a good chance of shaking loose under variable/no load

However I've also heard anecdotal evidence that Figure of 8 can fold over and capsize hence the reason for the alpine knot, which won't

[v666]

I have only ever used the Alpine knot in the middle of a rope when roping more than 2 mountainers together. I did not think it could be used at the end??

Tim

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Polwart

In my experience a figure of eight is also easier to untie than a bowline after a big shock load.

In my experience a bowline is far easier to untie after the knot has been put under load. hence why sailors use it, its even easy to undo with cold hands.

As already stated the climbing fraternity like the fig8 as there is less change of it working loose over the day.

That aside I climb with a bowline (and overhand). I guess its partly down to what you are used to. When I used to teach/supervise rock and wall climbing
we used fig8s, it was considered best practice, and all a beginner had to do on the wall was clip into the knot that had alreday been tied for them.

I do remeber reading many years ago that every knot reduces the breaking strain of a rope and that the fig8 reduced the rope to 85% where as the bowline was to 75%. This would explain why climbers, particually lead climbers would want to use the fig 8. where as a sailor who does not have to A- drag the weight of the rope up behind him and B- trust his life to the rope/knot would not be so fussy.

A lot of this comes down to personla preferance and the culture you operate in. Its good though to be aware of the pros and cons of different techniques.

[hobbit555]

Alpine knot or alpine butterfly is also known as a midshipmans knot, tied on the middle of the line but never on the end
Most knots came about from boating

[hippyhunter]

short answer, a climber uses a figure of eight with either a stopper knot or an eight inch tail

jim

[Brian Dinsley]

Originally Posted by Andy Moore

What is that knot climbers use to make a bight called?

Andy, A "double fisherman's" knot is used to make a loop sling out of a length of rope. It's also used for tying the rope loops fitted through the larger aluminium chocks used for protecting a climb. It's a simple knot which can be easily dismantled, even after it's been under load.

Here you go.....

http://www.animatedknots.com/doublef...scue/index.php

Cheers,,,, Brian