Tide Tables petition

[SeaSkills]

Someone called David Bartholomew recently managed to get a petition on to the Prime Minister's web site. This may well be of concern to all sailing people, or friends who go down to the sea in ships - small or otherwise. Please could you go to the following web site:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Tidetable-data ,

and sign the petition. I believe that this data should be available to all in any form that they desire. Effectively it seems to me that the Government is trying to copyright a natural phenomenon. Move over Canute!



If you think it important enough, please could you forward the information on to your friends as well. The timescale for this petition is short, 11 Jan is the deadline - so please spare a few minutes to do this.

[alystra]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Tidetable-data ,

and sign the petition. I believe that this data should be available to all in any form that they desire. Effectively it seems to me that the Government is trying to copyright a natural phenomenon. Move over Canute!

Done.

The more I've been hunting for Gov info on the web, the more I've found that I have to pay for. If the Gov wants to run itself as a business, then it can stop taxing us. It shouldn't have it both ways.

[Jeff]

Ditto ..... and sent to two local dive club members lists.
Thanks for notifying us of this
Jeff

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

Someone called David Bartholomew recently managed to get a petition on to the Prime Minister's web site. This may well be of concern to all sailing people, or friends who go down to the sea in ships - small or otherwise. Please could you go to the following web site:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Tidetable-data ,

and sign the petition. I believe that this data should be available to all in any form that they desire. Effectively it seems to me that the Government is trying to copyright a natural phenomenon. Move over Canute!



If you think it important enough, please could you forward the information on to your friends as well. The timescale for this petition is short, 11 Jan is the deadline - so please spare a few minutes to do this.

Ian, The petition is simply asking for the information to be made freely available - not for it to be free of copyright or other encumberances. I am not convinced there is actually a safety issue here.

If they make the data freely available without copyright then it would allow anyone who chose to, to take that data and use that for profit. They are not trying to copyright the phenomenon but they are protecting the crown's intellectual property in that if we (as tax payers) have paid for the data to be generated then it would be innaproptiate for a third party to exploit that for profit. Given the relatively low cost of a set of tide tables and the free information available on line there doesn't really seem to be an "issue" with access to the information.

There would be nothing to stop you independently measuring the harmonics informaion at your own expense (which would almost certainly be far more expensive and probably less accurate that the UKHO version). They don't own the physcial phenomenon just the data they have measured. Where do you draw the line - should charts be freely available?

[havener]

Tend to agree with Polwart on this one. There is plenty of freely available tide data - UKHO's Easytide, almanacs, harbour offices, HMCG stations, etc.

I've a feeling that the tidal info collection part of UKHO is probably self funding - the almanac publishers, tide table printers, etc. will have all had to pay for the material they print. Making all of that freely available would actually increase the cost to the taxpayer of UKHO, as well as severely damaging a few companies' businesses, all of which contribute to the UK tax pot.

And tides are pretty much predictable over a set cycle, so it's not as if the info differs hugely from one year to the next.

Everything that the Govt provides "free" has a cost - either to the front end user or to the taxpayer in the form of subsidy. After all, the Government has no money of its own - everything is money taken from someone else. As someone who believes that Government should be as small, and cheap, as possible, I have no problem paying for specialist information.

Now of course the decent option would be to privatise the UKHO so no-one contributes to it at all, only those who need its services (but then that goes for the whole of government too!).

[SeaSkills]

The problem with most of those examples that tidal data is only available freely for a few days in advance.

I'm actually not too bothered for myself - I have existing software for my own tidal calcs and will continue to use it, but I don't want to see costs increase because HMG has found another opportunity to pinch a bit extra money from us.

The UK is one of the few countries in the world where the harmonic variables used to calculate tide tables are deemed to be a copyright of the Crown. Currently the Government is requiring payment by any who wish to use and publish this data. This petition - as I understand it - simply asks that this data be made available to any who require it, and who wish to publish the results either on paper or electronically. If that increases competition, keeps prices down, and increases the availability of tidal info .... that sounds pretty good to me

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

The UK is one of the few countries in the world where the harmonic variables used to calculate tide tables are deemed to be a copyright of the Crown.

And this has only been the case for the last few years.

The reason that many people are aggrieved with the UKHO is that they have claimed ownership of data that was already in the public domain.

John

[havener]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

The reason that many people are aggrieved with the UKHO is that they have claimed ownership of data that was already in the public domain.

John

That's the case with most things this flaming government are involved in, on an ongoing basis. Road pricing is the classic example - being charged to use something we've already paid for.

I'm just worried they'll find a way of charging for air....

[Brian]

Originally Posted by havener

I'm just worried they'll find a way of charging for air....

That's already true isn't it?
Divers have to pay VAT on filling their bottles. This is explained by "not charging for the air itself, but rather for the service of condensing it into a bottle".

[DM]

Originally Posted by Polwart

if we (as tax payers) have paid for the data to be generated then it would be innaproptiate for a third party to exploit that for profit.

How does that equate to the DVLA selling your personal details to people like privately owned car clamping and car parking companies?

I committed a minor motoring offence in Norway. (They should have their speed limit signs in MPH, not KPH and it's not my fault if they drive on the wrong side of the road) The DVLA sold my details to a private collection agency in England who are contracted by the Norwegian government to recover fines.

I was shopped by my own government to a bunch of money grabbing Vikings.

[jwalker]

I blame Maggie Thatcher, she started it all....

[havener]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

How does that equate to the DVLA selling your personal details to people like privately owned car clamping and car parking companies?

I committed a minor motoring offence in Norway. (They should have their speed limit signs in MPH, not KPH and it's not my fault if they drive on the wrong side of the road) The DVLA sold my details to a private collection agency in England who are contracted by the Norwegian government to recover fines.

I was shopped by my own government to a bunch of money grabbing Vikings.

I'm amazed they could find the data to sell!! It was probably on a CD found in Tescos...

[Neil G]

Hiya
The problem is that the statement in the petition

"Currently Her Majesty's Government is requiring payment by any who wish to use and publish this data."

is wrong, you don't, I know, I'm a publisher! Last year the rules changed so there is now no fee to pay within certain limits and anyway as others have said it was only ever commercial publishers who had to pay. Clubs etc could get dispensation. Anyway, the fees were tiny compared to any of the other publishing costs.

Not sure what the fuss is all about really as others have said a tide table isn't that expensive - and many wll be pleased to know its not a VAT able item!

[alystra]

Originally Posted by Neil G

Hiya
The problem is that the statement in the petition

"Currently Her Majesty's Government is requiring payment by any who wish to use and publish this data."

is wrong, you don't, I know, I'm a publisher! Last year the rules changed so there is now no fee to pay within certain limits and anyway as others have said it was only ever commercial publishers who had to pay. Clubs etc could get dispensation. Anyway, the fees were tiny compared to any of the other publishing costs.

Not sure what the fuss is all about really as others have said a tide table isn't that expensive - and many wll be pleased to know its not a VAT able item!

Agreed about the cost of tide tables.

But I object to information that has been gathered at the taxpayers expense and which used to be freely available for the asking, now being charged for. Stuff like basic info on companies and their directors, who owns what land, electoral rolls, etc.

The excuse that it's a 'handling' fee is poppycock. It costs them nothing for me to search their databases via the net - and anyway I've already helped to pay for the info. Information that is 'freely available' should be just that, available free, not charged for at all.

[havener]

Originally Posted by alystra

Agreed about the cost of tide tables.

But I object to information that has been gathered at the taxpayers expense and which used to be freely available for the asking, now being charged for. Stuff like basic info on companies and their directors, who owns what land, electoral rolls, etc.

The excuse that it's a 'handling' fee is poppycock. It costs them nothing for me to search their databases via the net - and anyway I've already helped to pay for the info. Information that is 'freely available' should be just that, available free, not charged for at all.

Exactly.

As a secondary issue, what about copyright / intellectual property? If I give details to the government, whether compulsory or not, where is it stated anywhere that they have the consent to then sell on for gain this information? How does this fit with data protection?

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by havener

How does this fit with data protection?

yus dem bastuds att de DLVA sowld mi deetayls too. wen i askid dem wy, thay sed itt woz becuz ov de freedum ov infawmashun akt. wen i towld dem dat mi mait de atterney jenneral ad orlreddy sed wot thay woz doin woz illegul thay sed fuk im weer maykin 9 millyon kwid a yeer owt ov dis likkul scamm

wen i sed thay waz infrinjin de yewman rites akt thay sed buggir orf orr weel av yew arrestid unnder de jeneeva convenshun orr de cair inn de commoonitty akt.

ifn yew luk uppon orl dis legul bizniss az a gaim ov tabul teniss weer orl jus de ponng pinng borls

garF