Towing restrictions

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SW Boat Transport

Correct to a point. They only don't apply if the load cannot be carried on a vehicle conforming to C&U regulations ie if the boat could be carried on a artic, then you cannot use the indivisible load exemption.

You may be right but it doesn't sound quite right. A 7.5m rib would obviously fit on a low loader, but is over the "standard" maximum length. EDIT: I've just check the C&U Regs and I don't see any such provision - can you clarify?

[biffer]

That doesn't make much sense, surely you can carry any boat on a low loader which makes the other law obsolete

[fritz11]

As far as I knew it, the towing capacity of the vehicle must match or exceed the plated weight of the trailer at all times, wether loaded or not.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by SW Boat Transport

As far as driving licences and tachographs are concerned, yes. As far as towing vehicles are concerned, it would be perfectly legal to tow a 3500kg plated trailer behind a vehicle not rated to tow that weight, provided the actual weight of the trailer was inside the vehicle's towing capacity.

That's not how the man from the ministry explained it to me, GVW+plated trailer weight= GTW. I was told that the trailer weight is calculated at the plated weight, not its actual weight. E.g I can't tow a trailer with a plated weight of 4.5t with my disco as I would exceed the GTW , even if the trailer was empty & only weight 1t. Of course he might have been telling me a load of bollix. Just goes to show what a minefield it all is.

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by Poly

You may be right but it doesn't sound quite right. A 7.5m rib would obviously fit on a low loader, but is over the "standard" maximum length. EDIT: I've just check the C&U Regs and I don't see any such provision - can you clarify?

A 7.5m RIB would fit with C&U, as the 7m length limit excludes coupling, drawbar and rear overhang.

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by biffer

That doesn't make much sense, surely you can carry any boat on a low loader which makes the other law obsolete

What I am saying is the exemption allowing longer trailers when carrying indivisible loads only applies if they cannot be accommodated on a vehicle conforming to C&U regs.

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

That's not how the man from the ministry explained it to me, GVW+plated trailer weight= GTW. I was told that the trailer weight is calculated at the plated weight, not its actual weight. E.g I can't tow a trailer with a plated weight of 4.5t with my disco as I would exceed the GTW , even if the trailer was empty & only weight 1t. Of course he might have been telling me a load of bollix. Just goes to show what a minefield it all is.

Correct you couldn't tow a 4.5 ton played trailer with your disco, as all trailers plated above 3.5 tons require air brakes. You could however tow a 3.5 ton plated trailer (which only actually weighed say 1 ton) quite legally behind a Mondeo.

If this wasn't allowed, pretty much every artic on the road would be illegal as the GVW of the cab + GVW of trailer is almost always above the GTW of the cab.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SW Boat Transport

A 7.5m RIB would fit with C&U, as the 7m length limit excludes coupling, drawbar and rear overhang.

OK but say a 9m might well not (especially depending on the trailer design)...

...I can't see where it says in the C&U Regs that the indivisible length rule is caveated as you suggest; what you are implying as Biff says would essentially make the point of allowing indisible loads completely pointless. I can see that loads which are indivisible for WIDTH do have a reasonably practical caveat but not length.

On LENGTH the C&U regs (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made) say

7. (1) Subject to paragraphs (2) to (6), the overall length of a vehicle or combination of vehicles of a class specified in an item in column 2 of the Table shall not exceed the maximum length specified in that item in column 3 of the Table, the overall length in the case of a combination of vehicles being calculated in accordance with regulation 81(g) and (h).

Relevant bits of table:

1 A motor vehicle drawing one trailer not being a semi-trailer. 18m
9 Any other trailer not being an agricultural trailed appliance or a semi-trailer. 7m

(2) --
(3) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply to—
(a)a vehicle combination or trailer which is constructed and normally used for the conveyance of indivisible loads of exceptional length

(4) --
(5) Where a motor vehicle is drawing—
(a)--
(b)one trailer constructed and normally used for the conveyance of indivisible loads of exceptional length then
(i) the overall length of that motor vehicle shall not exceed 9.2 m; and
(ii) the overall length of the combination of vehicles, calculated in accordance with regulation 81(g) and (h), shall not exceed 25.9 m, unless the conditions specified in paragraphs 1 and 2 [these relate to notifiying police etc] of Schedule 12 have been complied with.

whereas with WIDTH they say:

82. (1) No load shall be carried on a vehicle so that the overall width of the vehicle together with the width of any lateral projection or projections of its load exceeds 4.3m.

(2) Subject to the following provisions of this regulation, no load shall be carried on a vehicle so that—

(a) the load has a lateral projection or projections on either side exceeding 305mm; or
(b) the overall width of the vehicle and of any lateral projection or projections of its load exceeds 2.9m.
Provided that this paragraph does not apply to the carriage of—
(i)--
(ii)an indivisible load if—
(A)it is not reasonably practicable to comply with this paragraph and the conditions specified in paragraph 1 of Schedule 12 are complied with; and
(B)where the overall width of the vehicle together with the width of any lateral projection or projections of its load exceeds 3.5m, the conditions specified in paragraph 2 of Schedule 12 are complied with.

So what am I missing?

[biffer]

No wonder plod don't stop more boats, it's truly a minefield, I'm going to stick to my first post, if it looks right, my little mule weighs in at 31/2 ton and looks right so I'll keep using her for towing, just to throw another thing into the ring, my motor in LGV not PLG, don't know what difference that would make other than my road tax is cheaper

[Trell]

Well I started using low loaders a while ago, after a run in with Vosa at Sleaford, the inspector was only interested in the plate on the hitch and whether or not my trailer lights worked, tubes were pumped up (9m ribcraft) and he let me go !

[Swain Marine]

Originally Posted by biffer

No wonder plod don't stop more boats, it's truly a minefield, I'm going to stick to my first post, if it looks right, my little mule weighs in at 31/2 ton and looks right so I'll keep using her for towing, just to throw another thing into the ring, my motor in LGV not PLG, don't know what difference that would make other than my road tax is cheaper

Biff I'm no expert on this but I think that puts you in a whole different category as you have a commercial vehicle over 3.5t (with trailer) ?
If you're towing a customers boat for work you'd need a tachograph and to follow rules on driving hours etc.

[ShinyShoe]

I gather the PLG /LGV stuff for taxation is unconnected to the rules on the road. So you can have a van that has windows etc and meets the rules for being a 'car' and can do 70 on a dual carriageway, that is registered as PLG/LGV for tax purposes.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I gather the PLG /LGV stuff for taxation is unconnected to the rules on the road. So you can have a van that has windows etc and meets the rules for being a 'car' and can do 70 on a dual carriageway, that is registered as PLG/LGV for tax purposes.

Ooooh! Now this is a can of worms, speaking as someone who was "done" doing 69mph on a dual carriageway in a Citroen Dispatch (had to do a speed awareness course delivered by the most patronising tw4t....) this is my understanding:-
If the vehicle is a car derived van i.e. the original design of the vehicle was a car & you are driving a van variant e.g. Escort, Astra, Mini van etc, you can do 70mph on a dual carriageway, as you can in a "dual purpose" vehicle e.g. Landrover, Hilux pickup, L200 etc.
However, if you are driving a vehicle that was originally designed as a van e.g. A van, minibus, campervan, converted ambulance etc. Then you are restricted to 60 on a dual carriageway, regardless of whether it has seats, windows etc, in the eyes of the law, it's a van.

[biffer]

This is going to get them going then

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by biffer

This is going to get them going then

I wouldn't know where to start Is it a Dual Purpose (looks like it) Is it over 7.5t GTW. Does it "look Right"?.........Should be ok then Say nowt, let them argue the tossdecide

[biffer]

Feck um, I know I shouldn't say that in this cotton wool HSE run world but I've been driving for 40 years, in the old days we could get things done without all these twats climbing on your back, was there accidents?, yes, but you could argue it was the kit that you used then not the operator. There are probably less accidents now because no one can do anything they want to. That's my Sunday rant, better than going to church

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

That's not how the man from the ministry explained it to me, GVW+plated trailer weight= GTW. I was told that the trailer weight is calculated at the plated weight, not its actual weight. E.g I can't tow a trailer with a plated weight of 4.5t with my disco as I would exceed the GTW , even if the trailer was empty & only weight 1t. Of course he might have been telling me a load of bollix. Just goes to show what a minefield it all is.

Well I can confirm that I have had problems with plated trailer weights before, relative to the towing vehicle capacity.

We use small plant trailers that weigh 750 kgs, but are plated to carry 2 tonne, onto which we would put a 1.5 tonne digger, so the total mass would be 2.25 tonne, but the trailers maximum mass could be 2.75 tonne

We were told by a utility company that the towing capacity of their vehicles were 2.3 tonne, and that, plod had advised them they were not allowed to use our types of trailers because the capacity was higher than their vehicles maximum capacity, and if they got stopped, they would get done.

I had to phone Ifor Williams, (who were aware of the problem) and they issued me with a new plate, which I fixed to the trailer, which only rated the load , or MAM to 2.3 tonne, and then, everyone was happy

Just because the drive 'could' overload his rig

How bonkers is that ?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Well I can confirm that I have had problems with plated trailer weights before, relative to the towing vehicle capacity.

We use small plant trailers that weigh 750 kgs, but are plated to carry 2 tonne, onto which we would put a 1.5 tonne digger, so the total mass would be 2.25 tonne, but the trailers maximum mass could be 2.75 tonne

We were told by a utility company that the towing capacity of their vehicles were 2.3 tonne, and that, plod had advised them they were not allowed to use our types of trailers because the capacity was higher than their vehicles maximum capacity, and if they got stopped, they would get done.

I had to phone Ifor Williams, (who were aware of the problem) and they issued me with a new plate, which I fixed to the trailer, which only rated the load , or MAM to 2.3 tonne, and then, everyone was happy

Just because the drive 'could' overload his rig

How bonkers is that ?

That's more or less as I understood it. The actual weight means bugger all as long as you're not overloaded, it's the plated weight that matters. If the plated weight exceeds the towing capacity of the vehicle then you're in the wrong, which contradicts what SW says. I've no idea which version is correct.

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

That's more or less as I understood it. The actual weight means bugger all as long as you're not overloaded, it's the plated weight that matters. If the plated weight exceeds the towing capacity of the vehicle then you're in the wrong, which contradicts what SW says. I've no idea which version is correct.

I dont think even plod knows, as clearly there are differing views, but it was certainly something the trailer manufacturer knew about (whether they agreed with it is another matter)

There certainly isnt any logic in it

[Festinghouse]

the instructor who got me through the b+e test told me it was all about what the plate says the maximum the car could weigh is, and the maximum weight of the trailer - this is why i had to do the test - whilst doing most of my towing the actual weight of my car and trailer is actually under the 3500kg limit, but because the plates read a lot more, it meant i was towing illegally!
as for the 60mph rule in a 70, i was told it was based on vehicle weight - anything over 2ton is restricted.