Towing restrictions

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

as for the 60mph rule in a 70, i was told it was based on vehicle weight - anything over 2ton is restricted.

Nope! a Disco weighs in at over 2500KG, 70mph on a dual carriage way for me, unless I'm towing My Van is 1800kg & is restricted to 60, there's no rhyme nor reason.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Nope! a Disco weighs in at over 2500KG, 70mph on a dual carriage way for me, unless I'm towing My Van is 1800kg & is restricted to 60, there's no rhyme nor reason.

Cos its a French van



I stick to the above with the 130

[Swain Marine]

This link has some useful info. The whole subject Is a bit of a nightmare..

http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/

[Festinghouse]

Originally Posted by mick

Cos its a French van

Attachment 86131

I stick to the above with the 130

that makes sense, think i will go with that!

[tehguy]

So much misinformation in here. It's much more easy to think about when you know that gross weights are relevant to licences, whereas actual weights are relevant to vehicles.

When I write this it is with the assumption that everyone has the BE category on their licence.

A car with a GVW of 1500kg and a towing capability of 1000kg can tow a trailer with a gross weight of 3500kg, providing that the ACTUAL WEIGHT of the trailer and its load do not exeed 1000kg. If the trailer weighs 750kg unladen, that would allow a load of 250kg. Pretty pointless yes, but it means even the smallest of hatchbacks can move big trailers around providing they are empty. I moved an unladen twin car transporter with a 306 once, the trailer weighed 750kg unladen but the car could tow 1200kg. I would never dream of towing it loaded! But a friend needed the trailer moved and didn't have a car with a tow bar at the time so I did it. Perfectly legal.

When it comes to the towing capacity of the car, the trailers actual weight (including load) is the only figure that matters. Any car can tow even the biggest of trailers providing that their actual weight does not exceed the cars towing capacity. It just means that if you have a plant trailer with a 3500kg gross weight, which weighs 1000kg unladen, a Discovery could tow it with a 2500kg digger on whereas an estate car might only be able to tow it with a 500kg lawnmower on.

The rules are slightly different for people without the BE category though, and gross weights do come in to play.

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

That's not how the man from the ministry explained it to me, GVW+plated trailer weight= GTW. I was told that the trailer weight is calculated at the plated weight, not its actual weight. E.g I can't tow a trailer with a plated weight of 4.5t with my disco as I would exceed the GTW , even if the trailer was empty & only weight 1t. Of course he might have been telling me a load of bollix. Just goes to show what a minefield it all is.

GTW only takes into account actual weights, providing the car (and its load) plus the trailer (and its load) do not equal more than the GTW of the car then you are legal, regardless of what the trailers plated maximum gross weight is. A Disco has a GVW of around 3200kg I think and can tow 3500kg, so the gross train weight will be around 6700kg. Note that the GVW + towing capacity does not always = GTW, it is normally a little lower.

Your Disco can tow any trailer providing its actual weight including load is not more than 3500kg.

Originally Posted by fritz11

As far as I knew it, the towing capacity of the vehicle must match or exceed the plated weight of the trailer at all times, wether loaded or not.

Completely false, see above. My car has a 1900kg towing capacity yet it can legally tow a trailer with a 4000kg plated weight.

Originally Posted by SW Boat Transport

Correct you couldn't tow a 4.5 ton played trailer with your disco, as all trailers plated above 3.5 tons require air brakes.

Not necessarily true. As far as I know there is no licence defined limit on the maximum weight of a trailer towed by a category B vehicle. However, there are not many (though there are some) such vehicles which are plated to tow more than 3500kg. Overrun brakes are only permitted upto 3500kg gross weight, anything else requires a close coupled brake system. I believe, electric, hydraulic and air are permitted. Land Rover Special Vehicles actually do a conversion for the Defender to change the brakes to air and this includes lorry style 'suzi' air lines so you can tow a trailer with air brakes, although these are pretty rare they do exist. The manual for the Defender states its towing capacity is actually 4000kg if a suitable braking system is used.

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

the instructor who got me through the b+e test told me it was all about what the plate says the maximum the car could weigh is, and the maximum weight of the trailer - this is why i had to do the test - whilst doing most of my towing the actual weight of my car and trailer is actually under the 3500kg limit, but because the plates read a lot more, it meant i was towing illegally!
as for the 60mph rule in a 70, i was told it was based on vehicle weight - anything over 2ton is restricted.

Correct, when you do not have BE on your licence then it is the gross weights which are important. The combination of the GVW of the towing vehicle and gross weight of the trailer cannot exceed 3500kg regardless of the actual weights. This means that if you are driving a car with a GVW of 2000kg then you cannot tow a trailer which has a gross weight of 1501kg, even if it is empty and only weighs 400kg! Yet you could tow a trailer with a gross weight of 1500kg fully loaded.

Funnily enough the B+E test vehicle requirements specify that the trailer you use must be at least as high as the towing vehicle and almost as wide, with a minimum gross weight of 1000kg. There are plenty of box trailers which would be suitable for the test which are around 1000kg gross weight, and with such a trailer there are many tow cars which you would be able to use which fall within the B licence towing limits. So you could technically drive alone (with trailer) to the test centre, slap L plates on, do the test, then even if you fail you could just take the L plates off and drive home again as you're still legal.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tehguy

So much misinformation in here. It's much more easy to think about when you know that gross weights are relevant to licences, whereas actual weights are relevant to vehicles.

When I write this it is with the assumption that everyone has the BE category on their licence.

A car with a GVW of 1500kg and a towing capability of 1000kg can tow a trailer with a gross weight of 3500kg, providing that the ACTUAL WEIGHT of the trailer and its load do not exeed 1000kg. If the trailer weighs 750kg unladen, that would allow a load of 250kg. Pretty pointless yes, but it means even the smallest of hatchbacks can move big trailers around providing they are empty. I moved an unladen twin car transporter with a 306 once, the trailer weighed 750kg unladen but the car could tow 1200kg. I would never dream of towing it loaded! But a friend needed the trailer moved and didn't have a car with a tow bar at the time so I did it. Perfectly legal.

When it comes to the towing capacity of the car, the trailers actual weight (including load) is the only figure that matters. Any car can tow even the biggest of trailers providing that their actual weight does not exceed the cars towing capacity. It just means that if you have a plant trailer with a 3500kg gross weight, which weighs 1000kg unladen, a Discovery could tow it with a 2500kg digger on whereas an estate car might only be able to tow it with a 500kg lawnmower on.

The rules are slightly different for people without the BE category though, and gross weights do come in to play.



GTW only takes into account actual weights, providing the car (and its load) plus the trailer (and its load) do not equal more than the GTW of the car then you are legal, regardless of what the trailers plated maximum gross weight is. A Disco has a GVW of around 3200kg I think and can tow 3500kg, so the gross train weight will be around 6700kg. Note that the GVW + towing capacity does not always = GTW, it is normally a little lower.

Your Disco can tow any trailer providing its actual weight including load is not more than 3500kg.



Completely false, see above. My car has a 1900kg towing capacity yet it can legally tow a trailer with a 4000kg plated weight.



Not necessarily true. As far as I know there is no licence defined limit on the maximum weight of a trailer towed by a category B vehicle. However, there are not many (though there are some) such vehicles which are plated to tow more than 3500kg. Overrun brakes are only permitted upto 3500kg gross weight, anything else requires a close coupled brake system. I believe, electric, hydraulic and air are permitted. Land Rover Special Vehicles actually do a conversion for the Defender to change the brakes to air and this includes lorry style 'suzi' air lines so you can tow a trailer with air brakes, although these are pretty rare they do exist. The manual for the Defender states its towing capacity is actually 4000kg if a suitable braking system is used.



Correct, when you do not have BE on your licence then it is the gross weights which are important. The combination of the GVW of the towing vehicle and gross weight of the trailer cannot exceed 3500kg regardless of the actual weights. This means that if you are driving a car with a GVW of 2000kg then you cannot tow a trailer which has a gross weight of 1501kg, even if it is empty and only weighs 400kg! Yet you could tow a trailer with a gross weight of 1500kg fully loaded.

Funnily enough the B+E test vehicle requirements specify that the trailer you use must be at least as high as the towing vehicle and almost as wide, with a minimum gross weight of 1000kg. There are plenty of box trailers which would be suitable for the test which are around 1000kg gross weight, and with such a trailer there are many tow cars which you would be able to use which fall within the B licence towing limits. So you could technically drive alone (with trailer) to the test centre, slap L plates on, do the test, then even if you fail you could just take the L plates off and drive home again as you're still legal.

Good info & well put, at least things are becoming clearer.

[Festinghouse]

that all contradicts everything ive read and been told - by people whos job it is to know. me and a friend tried to hire a car trailer once to move a mini bodyshell - no weight at all, but because of the plated max weight of the trailer they refused to let us hire it as we didnt have b+e on our licences. also im pretty sure b+e states a 3500kg limit.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

that all contradicts everything ive read and been told - by people whos job it is to know. me and a friend tried to hire a car trailer once to move a mini bodyshell - no weight at all, but because of the plated max weight of the trailer they refused to let us hire it as we didnt have b+e on our licences. also im pretty sure b+e states a 3500kg limit.

Whilst I don't know if he is right or not, he started by saying:

Originally Posted by tehguy

When I write this it is with the assumption that everyone has the BE category on their licence.

[Bigmuz7]

Its a bollockin mine field .. I have to obey so many fekin rules from the eurocrats as well as our own it makes my blood boil As a an HGV operators licence owner its hard enough .. but the trailer regs are mad .. and theres the old 'for hire and reward' chestnut which changes it all again .. how in gods name are we supposed to keep up ? Its impossible ?

I have to say despite my clear evidence of plods intervention with my customer .. I share tehguy's view... as I said before I think plod dont understand it either

What is wrong with someone towing 'anything' thats within their vehicles capacity, regardless of what the plate says it can carry ? as long as its within the vehicle limit

or have I missed the point that non CE drivers now are in a slot between the average motorist and CE and LGV class 2 ?

[Festinghouse]

i agree, and yes ive towed large, empty trailers behind small cars as i believe its fine and totally safe. i think the only reason they go off the plated weight is to avoid dragging everyone they stopped, off to the local weighbridge.

[fritz11]

I have been a transport manager for over 15 years, plated weight is all that matters, if the plate says 3500 kg then the vehicles towing capacity must be 3500 kg or higher, regardless of wether it is loaded or not. I was told by a Vosa inspector years ago that we couldn't tow our 3.5t ifor trailer with an L200 as it's towing capacity was 2.7 ton. The pickup and empty trailer were parked in our yard at the time and he said ' I better not see that rig on the road or I'll have your operators licence' .

[ShinyShoe]

So VOSA will have your licence, coz chances are there are some people in VOSA think they understand the rules. If you're a normal member of the public, then you are less likely to be visited by VOSA so may be less likely to hit a problem, but you'd still be breaking the law. If the fuzz is looking for something to do you for they may well try hard to find something...

While people saying if it looks right you will be alright sounds a good idea, and your average bobby isn't gonna pull you over. BUT if something goes wrong and you end up with your trailer being examined by someone who knows the rules you may be finding yourself infront of a judge trying to explain to them that the law is an arse and it looks right so should be fine ;-)

[tehguy]

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

that all contradicts everything ive read and been told - by people whos job it is to know. me and a friend tried to hire a car trailer once to move a mini bodyshell - no weight at all, but because of the plated max weight of the trailer they refused to let us hire it as we didnt have b+e on our licences. also im pretty sure b+e states a 3500kg limit.

Yes like I said if you don't have BE on your licence then the rules are different and the gross weights DO matter, regardless of the laden weights. It's crazy, but it works to a point.

Originally Posted by fritz11

I have been a transport manager for over 15 years, plated weight is all that matters, if the plate says 3500 kg then the vehicles towing capacity must be 3500 kg or higher, regardless of wether it is loaded or not. I was told by a Vosa inspector years ago that we couldn't tow our 3.5t ifor trailer with an L200 as it's towing capacity was 2.7 ton. The pickup and empty trailer were parked in our yard at the time and he said ' I better not see that rig on the road or I'll have your operators licence' .

I'm sorry but that's plain wrong and I think the VOSA inspector must have had it in for you. There are only about 20 category B vehicles which have a towing capacity of 3500kg or more yet there are thousands of trailers on the road which are plated at 3500kg. If I were in your position, I would have taken it out on the road and let him pull me, he could not just 'have your O licence', and a court would laugh it out because he's making the rules up himself. As long as you have the suitable entitlements on your licence, and the trailers actual weight does not exceed the vehicles towing capacity, the trailers plated weight does not matter whatsoever.

The rules are different for HGV where it's all based around gross weights, but as far as towing within category BE matters it's only the actual weights which are relevant.

Also, you only need an O licence if your trailer is over 1020kg unladen and you are carrying someone else's goods.

[Festinghouse]

we seem to have a problem, everyone has heard / read / been told different things, often by 'official' sources. does nobody have a government published source of info that easily, clearly and definitively put this one to bed, allowing us to all tow within the law?

[Jeff Hutcheon]

Originally Posted by fritz11

I have been a transport manager for over 15 years, plated weight is all that matters, if the plate says 3500 kg then the vehicles towing capacity must be 3500 kg or higher, regardless of wether it is loaded or not. I was told by a Vosa inspector years ago that we couldn't tow our 3.5t ifor trailer with an L200 as it's towing capacity was 2.7 ton. The pickup and empty trailer were parked in our yard at the time and he said ' I better not see that rig on the road or I'll have your operators licence' .

When I did my O licence c p c 15 years ago this is the way I read it, we had a lot of problems matching up vans to trailers as some drivers would jump into different vans but towing the same trailer, transits being a big one, different sizes, weights and engines etc but look the same to some drivers !!

[Barrowboy]

Well, on the basis that ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law (and total confusion even less likely to impress m'lud) I guess I'm going to have to visit an 'official' government Agency website and then hire an interpreter to explain the nuances.

I 'think' I'm ok.

Old enough to have automatic entitlement to B&C
GVW 2000Kg
Plated trailer 1400Kg
Working brakes
Rig, inc trailer, engine, fuel, battery, anchor, etc, etc (probably) 900Kg


....but it's only an educated guess so I'm off to my mates yard to get on his weighbridge v. soon.

[Bigmuz7]

There are a lot of experienced users here though.

The fact is .. everytime euro regs change we are all in abayance, and no one is sure what is correct and what is not. This cannot go on .. and I am not prepared to lose my licence because of all this confusion, some plod says this and another says that ..
You cant stand and waive bits of paper at these people for what you believe at the roadside ,, it must be set down clearly for all of us .. I'm soo fe d up of all the confusion ... hehe maybe thats why I'm a RIBnet member and going dooooooooolaly

[ShinyShoe]

GVW 2000Kg
Plated trailer 1400Kg
Working brakes
Rig, inc trailer, engine, fuel, battery, anchor, etc, etc (probably) 900Kg

So provided (1) You are right on the 900kg (or at least right on the <1400kg) and (2) The car is plated to tow 1400kg. even I am OK with my simple cat B 1998 licence.

Unless I'm mistaken the people who need to worry are:

• If your car and trailer MAM combined > 3500kg
• If your trailer MAM > Car plated towing weight
• If you passed your test in 2013 or later as the rules changed again

[Silverfox]

Originally Posted by mick

Cos its a French van I stick to the above with the 130

I'd go with that too Mick

[Barrowboy]

There are a lot of experienced users here though.

Muz, you're absolutely right and personally I've benefited hugely from a bundle of knowledge freely shared across a whole range of subject matter on RIBnet but the confusion surrounding this subject is seriously concerning when you consider that all of us should 'know' the rules and regs.

Many people have posted on this thread who clearly have a great deal more experience than I do in this specific area, dealing on a daily basis with these issues in their day-to-day, professional life. What seriously bothers me is that many of these people are quoting first-hand contact with a variety of law-enforcement personnel; police, VOSA, etc. who themselves seem to be offering conflicting advice!

As I say, I believe I'm ok but am thankful that I have a robust car, a trailer plated well below the GVW of the car and a small boat!