Towing without an additional test - consultation

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Thats a very good suggestion but I suspect that they back tracked on the tests because it didnt add to road safety. The govt will have the accident statistics before & after the implementation of the test & presumably they know it didn't increase road safety overall. Probably more accidents caused by cars close to their max towing limit trying to stay under 3500kg than there would be if folk could use a bigger vehicle and be legal. Imho a bigger heavier tow vehicle adds more to safety when towing something around 1500-2000kg than all the training in the world. The training seems to concentrate on slow speed maneuvering & reversing which might help avoid embarrassing situations but I'd wager most bad accidents happen at 50+mph when the tail starts wagging the dog because the car is marginal for the combination.
We might see more slipway entertainment now when folk cant reverse but I doubt there will be more bad accidents on the motorways.

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Absolutely [emoji106]

[TmMorris]

Originally Posted by Poly

I think the gov missed the opportunity there to say if you do x hours of training with an approved instructor we will add the category to you license but if you don’t you miss out (they could have left tests for people who prefer not to get training as an alternative route).

Agreed. It's good that the rules have been simplified. However, this hasn't been done because everyone who tows will know what they are doing but because they need to stop all trailer testing so as to focus on getting new lorry drivers qualified.

What it really means is that the incompetent and negligent dangers to everyone who were being kept away from us by this '97 ruling are now free to join the incompetent and negligent trailer users who randomly happened to get awarded permission to tow on the grounds of being able to vaguely operate a car.

In reality, what it's likely to mean is that it won't just be idiot old men who block slipways due to their utter incompetence but their children can now join in the fun.

To be honest though, the biggest issue I find with trailer users and usage is the absence of basic manners. Whether it's other car users not being civil or the boat owner failing to be so. The latter being most striking as I'm not really used to meeting boat folk who are inconsiderate so meeting them this season where they block the slipway while they fettle with their launched boat on the pontoon has been a surprise.

I had one last week who even sat down onboard to pour himself a drink while three of us stood waiting to launch. The chap was totally oblivious even when I called over the water to ask him if I could help by moving his car. He said he had the keys but even when I replied that I could reach the handbrake I really don't think it sunk in. It took another chap in the queue to simply bark at him to come and move his car.

[jeffstevens763@g]

You can train people until your blue in the face some never get it winter with snow is a classic.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Thats a very good suggestion but I suspect that they back tracked on the tests because it didnt add to road safety. The govt will have the accident statistics before & after the implementation of the test & presumably they know it didn't increase road safety overall.

Hang on a minute. Are you suggesting that government are doing any of this for our convenience? Or logical rational thinking about safety and competence? Their pals in the haulage sector told them this is what was needed. Perhaps a senior civil servant was pissed off about having to take a test to tow his caravan or an MP has a trailer sailor and that was tipping the balance. I’m sure like you say it won’t be carnage on the roads…

But this is very much so MPs can say, “well we changed the rules so there were more people able to become lorry drivers” when there are no Christmas crackers on the shelves…

[beamishken]

But this is very much so MPs can say, “well we changed the rules so there were more people able to become lorry drivers” when there are no Christmas crackers on the shelves…[/QUOTE]


I agree its more about being seen to do something but I'd imagine if the figures predicted a large rise in accidents then they wouldn't dare make things easier for anyone.
I suspect they actually got it wrong when they implemented the current system but wouldnt reverse the decision earlier as that would be admitting they were wrong. The current shortage of drivers gives them an opportunity to get rid of pointless rules whilst looking like they are doing something positive without admitting they messed up in the first place.
A win win decision for them!



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[TmMorris]

While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment re politicians, I tend to favour a Govt that removes red tape than adds it and the '97 rule was probably pointless as being an incompetent numpty isn't age related so there was probably no benefit in having a rule that split the numpties by age.

They could have just left the rule in place and suspended testing for 12 months but arguably that would have discriminated against the competent post 97 group which wouldn't have been fair.

What we do need to be wary of however, is the insurance industry. It will have been them who supplied the data that was used and if the decision was 100% politically motivated or made in deference to truck testing then it is perfectly feasible that while English Law says no test is required the insurance industry may remove the right for anyone, of any age, to have these towing rights on their policy without a customer having taken an industry standardised test to get them. Ergo, the insurance industry could turn a relatively minor and arguably short lived bottleneck issue into a serious mess!

The area that I don't fully understand with regards to the shortage of lorry drivers is what has happened to the thousands of retired HGV license holders? We have a huge reservist group of recently retired drivers who could be mobilised via a zero tax incentive to return to the market place for 12/18 months or do British HGV drivers work until the day their legs fall off or eyes drop out.

I guess the real problem stems back to 1997 when the cheaper EU labour was brought in and over the last twenty years the haulage industry, through natural market forces, created a significant imported labour market. Combined with local workers having better paid and easier jobs available to them than haulage?

[Fergus3060]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rule...om-autumn-2021

Looks like the changes came in today

[HDAV]

Yep see what difference it makes

[paintman]

Caravan sales up.
Holiday congestion up.
Upside down caravans up.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by paintman

Caravan sales up.
Holiday congestion up.
Upside down caravans up.

Doubt it!

[paintman]

Caravan sales are exceptionally high - have been for over 18 months as people aren't going abroad & are holidaying in the UK.
Getting decent used stock is next to impossible as many are first time buyers so no p/ex. Prices are silly high as a result & no sign of the bubble bursting. (I do body repairs for a large East Midlands caravan dealer)

God alone knows where they all go to, but my youngest was unable to find a tent pitch in August for 7 consecutive days on one of either of the sites local to Coverack & had 3 on one & 4 on the other. Never had an issue in previous years & most local sites were rammed - as were the resorts.

As to upside down I usually see at least one on its side or roof on the journey down to Cornwall. Sometimes the car has gone over too. Usually on long downhill stretches on the M5 or dual carriageways.
With anyone now being able to just hook up & go I can't see it getting any better.

[beamishken]

With anyone now being able to just hook up & go I can't see it getting any better.[/QUOTE]

The difference now is folk can legally hook up to a substantial vehicle instead of being forced into using a marginal vehicle to stay below 3500kg gtw.
Previously my daughter couldn't legally tow our rib on 1300kg trailer with my landcruiser or hilux but could legally tow it with her 1.4 golf. Go figure which is safer.
I'd wager the accidents you see are mostly from the sub 3500kg gtw group.

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[Poly]

Originally Posted by paintman

Caravan sales are exceptionally high - have been for over 18 months as people aren't going abroad & are holidaying in the UK.
Getting decent used stock is next to impossible as many are first time buyers so no p/ex. Prices are silly high as a result & no sign of the bubble bursting. (I do body repairs for a large East Midlands caravan dealer)

yeah so caravan sales were already high and the need for an extra license to tow some types of van, or some vans behind some cars wasn't a barrier to sales.

God alone knows where they all go to, but my youngest was unable to find a tent pitch in August for 7 consecutive days on one of either of the sites local to Coverack & had 3 on one & 4 on the other. Never had an issue in previous years & most local sites were rammed - as were the resorts.

I assumed you mean congestion on the roads, either way realisticly the number of people holidaying in the UK must be close to peak already so can only go down, if the queue already has 1 caravan at the front I'm not convinced it will be worse with another further back. If theres little free space at camp sites it will presumably limit further caravans in those areas (or force expansion / new sites).

As to upside down I usually see at least one on its side or roof on the journey down to Cornwall. Sometimes the car has gone over too. Usually on long downhill stretches on the M5 or dual carriageways.
With anyone now being able to just hook up & go I can't see it getting any better.

So under the previous regime there were vans upside down (I didn't notice a gradual reduction in this trend since the rules changed 24 yrs ago) - so it seems either it wasn't stopping people getting it wrong or, potentially worse, the weird rules where you could sneak a moderate weight braked trailer on a lighter weight tow vehicle actually made it more likely.

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Personally I think the current system is a mess. The most difficult (IMHO) thing about towing is manoeuvring, particularly reversing. I’ve seen plenty of people with “grandfather” towing rights, make a complete hash of reversing to the point of being dangerous. Bizarrely, the current rules allow you to tow a small trailer without passing a test, & anyone who has ever towed knows that the smaller the trailer, the more difficult it is to reverse. Generally I’m against regulation & overbearing enforcement, but personally I think you should at least have to prove competency to tow ANY trailer.

Long story short is the B:E testing was littering up the test stations and getting rid makes way for C+E testers wanting to get HGV/LGV drivers through their tests the simple question is which one do we need more (a rhetorical question) .
Folks managed to tow stuff about before 97 and I'm sure they will figure it out for themselves in the future.
The UK doesn't have a big problem with trailer towing B:E
But it does have class one driver shortages.
The test both for car towing a trailer and class 1 artic does not teach you how to reverse a trailer properly...more of a do this and that to pass your reverse exercise (currently a reverse s into a bay )
They give you a licence for a 44 tonne truck but it can take 3-6 months to get to grips with reversing and much longer than that to master it....even then you can balls it up and have to take a shunt...we all have one of those days every now and then.
But here is the truth in nutshell...the few traffic cops we do have wouldn't have the first clue about towing regulations so who's going to police the rules at any rate? DVSA....i don't think so.

[lakelandterrier]

Originally Posted by TmMorris

The area that I don't fully understand with regards to the shortage of lorry drivers is what has happened to the thousands of retired HGV license holders? We have a huge reservist group of recently retired drivers who could be mobilised via a zero tax incentive to return to the market place for 12/18 months or do British HGV drivers work until the day their legs fall off or eyes drop out.

The answer is not as simple as just coming out of retirement.

4 important - but not the only - factors are:
Change to tax law under IFS35 meaning that a large number of self-employed / agency drivers faced a higher tax regime - so in their view carrying on was not worth it.

Apart from medicals, all LGV drivers now have to have a valid Driver CPC which means undertaking a rolling programme (and cost) of continuous training / assessments.

A significant proportion of the UK driving population was (Eastern) European drivers who have returned to home countries post Brexit.

Working conditions- which are by most standards generally poor -anti-social and often irregular hours, a fairly solitary existence, very poor roadside facilities across the UK, constant pressure to be on time despite factors out of drivers' control - congestion, road closures by traffic wombles, delays at previous drops etc...and as last point in the supply chain the easiest - and often the only person the customer sees - thus the point of blame for everything.

Not the most attractive career, so fewer entering casing a long term problem, and no real incentive to come out of retirement into a gruelling and thankless work environment.

That said there are a number of good employers both 3PL and in-house, but it is a very fragmented and cost driven low margin industry and providing a decent working environment carries up-front cost which customers won't bear, despite delivering service resilience.

It is the combination of all these factors that have led to the critical shortage of drivers, not any in isolation.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by paintman

Caravan sales up.
Holiday congestion up.
Upside down caravans up.

Nothing like having a positive attitude!

[Maximus]

L

Originally Posted by jwalker

Nothing like having a positive attitude!

Don't worry....with truly the Draconian "measures" coming to pass in The WHOLE of Gtr Manchester (and without doubt plenty of other areas across the nation soon) and the already stated aim of drastically reducing private car ownership (for the masses anyway!) .....pretty soon there won't be anything left to Tow them with!