Tragedy at Padstow - 5 May 2013

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by boristhebold

I was interested in why the manufacturer rejected the reco to review the hull design, after the specific mention in the report about the sudden increase in heel?

Not sure I was that surprised. Changing design could be seen as admission of a fault which makes them potentially liable... Better to blame the user and say ours is no worse than any others...

In my experience of product liabilities manufacturers tend to only voluntarily recall goods when there is no ambiguity of there being an issue and they are mitigating the size of the problem or they have a regulator who could force them to recall in which case they prefer to voluntarily do it because it implies its not bad enough to be regulatory forced to do so. I'm sure there are occasional backroom chats along the lines of "if you were to voluntarily recall it will save us having to force you to which cuts down some paperwork for both parties But if you choose not to we will be looking to use our regulatory powers."

I know there is a difference as MAIB didn't say recall, they said modify the design so presumably only for new boats going forward. But design change can be seen as saying the previous design is flawed... Along come the no win no fee guys...

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by Lark

I seem to remember that in the book Heavy weather power boating, one of the authors argues for not using kill cords in rough conditions, so that if the helm goes overboard, the person who takes control doesn't have to loose time restarting the engine (amongst other reasons). Does anyone agree with that advice? (I realise it's off topic from the Padstow tragedy)

No. And certainly on the E-TEC you can restart without the kill cord anyway, so that excuse doesn't apply even if it did make sense, which it doesn't for most users. The same system was fitted to my last boat - old Johnson 2 stroke - you could pull the cord off and the engine would stop, popping the key out slightly, but then push the key back in and restart if you needed to in a hurry.

If the helm goes overboard, in my view the best chance the other pax have of getting the situation under control is if it's all gone quiet at the stern, rather than that it's all still possibly roaring round in circles trying to chuck them out as well and run over the people who are now in the water. In really heavy seas if it takes the other pax ten or fifteen seconds to get the situation under control and the boat isn't circling, by the time they get things under control and turned around they might already have lost sight of the person now in the water.

Just my 2p...

[Barrowboy]

Originally Posted by Mollers

"Isn't always"? My run through ends with never.

My missus does wear a spare kill cord but to be brutally honest I have no expectation that in the heat of the moment it would be very useful. However, I've made absolutely sure, (and then made absolutely sure again!) that Mrs B knows precisely how to operate the DSC radio and in the event that I go over the side when underway she should concentrate all her efforts on getting the Mayday out there (and acknowledged). She also knows how to set the flares off. She's never going to be out with me in a seaway but even in the flat calm I really would't want her trying to manoeuvre the boat back close enough alongside to pick me up and to be honest, she wouldn't be comfortable doing it so in my opinion it really wouldn't be a very sensible or even viable option....

I always wear a DSC handheld when out on the rib (clipped to my belt BUT ALSO ATTACHED WITH A LANYARD) so in the event I go overboard there's a chance I could communicate with relevant parties although I'm very well aware that Mustrib lost his on impact with the water when he was ejected earlier this year.

Only once the Mayday has been acknowledged should she attempt to restart the boat and then head back SLOWLY to the general area where she believes I am. Of course, if we're able to communicate between ourselves via VHF then happy days, I can possibly assist her with heading back to my location but when (if) she manages to get back to within 20 metres of me, cut the engine and chuck me a line!

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Barrowboy

My missus does wear a spare kill cord but to be brutally honest I have no expectation that in the heat of the moment it would be very useful. However, I've made absolutely sure, (and then made absolutely sure again!) that Mrs B knows precisely how to operate the DSC radio and in the event that I go over the side when underway she should concentrate all her efforts on getting the Mayday out there (and acknowledged). She also knows how to set the flares off. She's never going to be out with me in a seaway but even in the flat calm I really would't want her trying to manoeuvre the boat back close enough alongside to pick me up and to be honest, she wouldn't be comfortable doing it so in my opinion it really wouldn't be a very sensible or even viable option....

I always wear a DSC handheld when out on the rib (clipped to my belt BUT ALSO ATTACHED WITH A LANYARD) so in the event I go overboard there's a chance I could communicate with relevant parties although I'm very well aware that Mustrib lost his on impact with the water when he was ejected earlier this year.

Only once the Mayday has been acknowledged should she attempt to restart the boat and then head back SLOWLY to the general area where she believes I am. Of course, if we're able to communicate between ourselves via VHF then happy days, I can possibly assist her with heading back to my location but when (if) she manages to get back to within 20 metres of me, cut the engine and chuck me a line!

If it's lumpy and it's only the two of us, I slip a PLB in the sky rocket. I put more trust in the CG and RN getting me out.

[Searider]

Iirc the RNLI boats have sprung loaded throttles. If the helm goes overboard the engines return to idle. Hence mitigating the risk associated with not having a kill cord.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Searider

Iirc the RNLI boats have sprung loaded throttles. If the helm goes overboard the engines return to idle. Hence mitigating the risk associated with not having a kill cord.

I said this previously based on information I read here - but some current helms assured me it is not the case.

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by Searider

Iirc the RNLI boats have sprung loaded throttles. If the helm goes overboard the engines return to idle. Hence mitigating the risk associated with not having a kill cord.

Incorrect

Originally Posted by Poly

I said this previously based on information I read here - but some current helms assured me it is not the case.

Correct - the throttle control boxes on an Atlantic 85 are standard.

Always remember that a RNLI helmsperson is a very highly trained individual and that their SOP is never to leave their position and always to have their hands on the throttles at all times

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

SOP is never to leave their position and always to have their hands on the throttles at all times

I'd imagine that most who've been spat out had a similar intended SOP.

Regardless of training or experience, shit happens.

ILB helms are human not gods, I know a couple.

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by Mollers

I'd imagine that most who've been spat out had a similar intended SOP.

Regardless of training or experience, shit happens.

ILB helms are human not gods, I know a couple.

What ever you say

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

What ever you say

Weak.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

Always remember that a RNLI helmsperson is a very highly trained individual and that their SOP is never to leave their position and always to have their hands on the throttles at all times

It might be suggested that that is complacent, and complacency leads to accidents: Marine Accident Investigation: Kinghorn

[willk]

Originally Posted by Mollers

ILB helms are human not gods, I know a couple.

I know a couple as well. I'd have said they were kinda inbetween. If I was in the water, they'd take on a God-like appearance fairly smartly.

Lough Swilly RNLI assist in recovering man in the water off Fanad in Donegal

Check the video - the Helm is a RIBnetter from my local cruising grounds

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by willk

If I was in the water, they'd take on a God-like appearance fairly smartly.

So would a WAFi on his Moody 36 if he were the one pulling you back from a trip to Davy Jones Locker.

[ashbypower]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0DGkBdGTmM

What was that you said ?


Ah Yes

Originally Posted by Ribochet

Always remember that a RNLI helmsperson is a very highly trained individual

PS I am not dissing the RNLI but their helms are human !!

[Searider]

Originally Posted by Poly

I said this previously based on information I read here - but some current helms assured me it is not the case.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

[Simon B]

We're all human and some of us make mistakes.

Getting back on thread, my dive club has decided we will go the route of cable tie-ing our kill cords to lifejackets, no life jacket no boat handling. And when you change over you have to disconnect from the boat not the person.

I'll let you know how we fair. Just off to purchase a dozen or so kill cords plus a pair of pliers and some cable ties.

Toodle Pip

[Ovey]

That sounds as though it may present a few problems Simon - it means that you'll have to switch off the engine every time you change the helm. All well and good if you do this tied up, or in sheltered waters with nothing around, but if you're wanting a quick change in any other circumstance, you're not going to get it. Just my thoughts.

[John Kennett]

Having been the victim of the capricious nature of even well-maintained outboards, I must confess to feeling very uncomfortable switching them off anywhere where not being able to restart would be a problem.

My normal change over method is to leave the engine running, but keep a firm hold of the kill cord until it is attached to the next helm. Not as foolproof as the multiple kill cord method, but avoids the possibility of that sickening sound of nothing happening when you turn the key.

[chris.moody]

I often used to work single handed on ribs with clients aboard. Before berthing I had to put fenders and lines out. I always stopped the engine, in a safe place, and drifted whilst putting out the fenders and lines, then restarted the engine and came into the pontoon or quayside.

It was the same process when leaving, get off the quay or pontoon to a safe place, turn off engine and drift, put away fenders and lines, restart engine and off we went.

If the engine had not restarted I would have deployed the anchor, and then dealt with the problem, but I was never worried that it may not restart.

[Simon B]

John, those were my thoughts too but engine technology has moved on, if I was that worried it would not not start then should I not take such a death trap out to sea?

The balance of risk for me is the key thing, as our chair said of my suggestion "what like a swipe on a till at a pub? Now I understand"

I think a stop less change is possible on our Suzuki another thing to test.


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