Tragic accident findings

[codprawn]

You seem to have missed the point - I am trying to bat a few ideas around that could - maybe - save one of OUR live's one day - constructive arguments are the way to go. You can have the best boat in the world but can you GUARANTEE you will never have an accident?

What is so stupid about fins? I reckon if you had a pair handy(which many rib users do) then it would make swimming considerably easier - unless you know different!!!

[three-rex]

Originally Posted by codprawn

With lifejackets on they would have found it even harder to swim. The bloke who survived eventually made it ashore. He was very close to the end - a lesser person would have been long gone which the report does mention.

Might be harder to swim with a lifejacket on, but it's a ffff-sight easier to sink without one!

Sounds like they both got very tired and at some point, both of them went under, rescusitated once, and failed the second - with a life jacket, the submergence wouldn't have happened.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by codprawn

You seem to have missed the point - I am trying to bat a few ideas around that could - maybe - save one of OUR live's one day - constructive arguments are the way to go. You can have the best boat in the world but can you GUARANTEE you will never have an accident?

What is so stupid about fins? I reckon if you had a pair handy(which many rib users do) then it would make swimming considerably easier - unless you know different!!!

I dont think I have missed the point, the reason you had for starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up an accident report. Having read through the whole thing my opinion is that you chose to totally ignore what would appear to be an extremely thorough investigation, which indicates the main contibutory factors for the accident to be what I have listed in my last post, in order to criticise the MAIB.
Having been shot down in flames by John you try to side step by spouting tripe about olympic swimmers not wearing lifejackets and then claim you were suggesting we all learn from the tragedy by putting our mobiles in plastic bags.
I believe you were trying to be controversial but ended up looking a berk. Flippers and plastic bags are no substitute for properly maintained lifejackets, flares (in date) an epirb and perhaps more importantly a boat which is properly maintained.
The fact is that the people on the Pamela appeared to have had none of the above, and tragically one of them will never have the opportunity learn from his mistakes. So if any of us can learn anything from this, which you claim to be trying to do, how about this;
Get the basics right and wear a life jacket, before you start buying flippers!

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by codprawn

[url]The report also attacks the kind of bilge pumps they had fitted. They were 3x Rule 500gph automatics but wired to operate in manual mode only.

From the report:
The switches for the fish hold and aft compartment were 3-way rocker panel switches with manual off and automatic positions.

You're 1/3 right.

They had flares in the cabin but the boat just sank to fast.

So what good are the fins going to do, besides taking up space?

With the tides in the area they just couldn't get themselves to safety despite being very fit men. They had NO means of summoning help.

How did you come to the conclusion they were both very fit?

From the report:
He [captain] then made a very hurried and short “Mayday” call on the VHF radio.

Interestingly, this is the ony reference to the Mayday call. No mention if anyone heard it.

I know mobile phones are no subsitute for a VHF but most crew and passengers will have them in their pockets at ALL times.

On a working boat? Not if you don't like replacing electronics every week.


The lifejacket question, I'll sort of agree with you. Yes, a lifejacket adds drag and bulk to a swimmer, which will slow him down. It also, though (and this is key) allows him to float high enough to breathe without expending energy.

Your analogy of Olympic swimmers or Channel swimmers is useless: Neither *has* to stay afloat for long periods of time with no aid nearby. Channel swimmers have a chase boat; Olympic swimmers have less than 50 meters to help.

Benc has it right; swimming backwards while buoyed by flotation keeps your mouth and nose higher above the waterline, and puts your feet deeper in the water, where they are more effective. Swimming with no buoyancy is very tiresome, hence the Olympic competitions. Wear the lifejacket. May slow you down, but it will keep you alive. And, should you expire, it will at least allow the S&R crews to locate your body.

jky

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

I dont think I have missed the point, the reason you had for starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up an accident report. Having read through the whole thing my opinion is that you chose to totally ignore what would appear to be an extremely thorough investigation, which indicates the main contibutory factors for the accident to be what I have listed in my last post, in order to criticise the MAIB.
Having been shot down in flames by John you try to side step by spouting tripe about olympic swimmers not wearing lifejackets and then claim you were suggesting we all learn from the tragedy by putting our mobiles in plastic bags.
I believe you were trying to be controversial but ended up looking a berk. Flippers and plastic bags are no substitute for properly maintained lifejackets, flares (in date) an epirb and perhaps more importantly a boat which is properly maintained.
The fact is that the people on the Pamela appeared to have had none of the above, and tragically one of them will never have the opportunity learn from his mistakes. So if any of us can learn anything from this, which you claim to be trying to do, how about this;
Get the basics right and wear a life jacket, before you start buying flippers!

I mentioned the TWO specific points

1 - WHY state that the bilge pumps were SPECIFICALLY for jetskis?

2. There is NO evidence to support the fact they would have survived with lifejackets.

Also please tell me what difference in date or out of date flares would have made as they didn't have time to get them?

I was NOT trying to be controversial - as I said valuable lessons can be learnt from such reports IF people take the time to study them. I have re read the rport many times and could only find the above 2 points to disagree with.

You may ridicule my idea of putting a mobile phone in a plastic bag but if the well founded boat your are on suddenly hits a wave wrong and capsizes throwing you into the water you may just be glad of it!!! What uses are Epirbs - flares - vhf radios etc when they are in your upside down boat that is rapidly drifting away from you???

[codprawn]

I think it is pretty fair to assume that 2 blokes who surived a lot longer than they should in cold water are pretty fit - which is what the report says.

As to a mobile phone maybe they are more popular in the UK - I know trawler men and lifeboat men who carry them at all times!!!

The point of fins on an open RIB is that if you capsize they may end up in the water with you - would make it a hell of a lot easier to swim to shore - unless you only find 1 and you go around in circles.

[wavecrosschris]

and if your aunty had balls she av have been your uncle...

there is no excuse for going to out sea without WEARING a life jacket - There is only one reason you put one on - and unfortunatly for the poor bloke who died in that report, he 'probably' in 'my' opinion would have prefered to have been wearing one, whether the other chap made it ashore or not.

I never take my jacket off whilst out unless i intentionally want to go in. I have fallen in with an Auto life Jacket a couple of times and know other people who have, one was even in port solent lock - a place where you REALLY WOULD want to be wearing one if you fell in. Out at sea is different when youve got nothing to cling onto - I would imagine the amount of energy waisted in the first 5 minutes just staying above the surface initially would be enough to drown most. Always wear a life Jacket.

[qcamel]

You may ridicule my idea of putting a mobile phone in a plastic bag but if the well founded boat your are on suddenly hits a wave wrong and capsizes throwing you into the water you may just be glad of it!!! What uses are Epirbs - flares - vhf radios etc when they are in your upside down boat that is rapidly drifting away from you??? [/QUOTE]


The point of fins on an open RIB is that if you capsize they may end up in the water with you - would make it a hell of a lot easier to swim to shore - unless you only find 1 and you go around in circles.

So your fins float up to where you have landed and the EPIRB has sunk without trace....

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by wavecrosschris

and if your aunty had balls she av have been your uncle...

there is no excuse for going to out sea without WEARING a life jacket - There is only one reason you put one on - and unfortunatly for the poor bloke who died in that report, he 'probably' in 'my' opinion would have prefered to have been wearing one, whether the other chap made it ashore or not.

I never take my jacket off whilst out unless i intentionally want to go in. I have fallen in with an Auto life Jacket a couple of times and know other people who have, one was even in port solent lock - a place where you REALLY WOULD want to be wearing one if you fell in. Out at sea is different when youve got nothing to cling onto - I would imagine the amount of energy waisted in the first 5 minutes just staying above the surface initially would be enough to drown most. Always wear a life Jacket.

Would you wear a lifejacket in a Sunseeker 65 at anchor when you are tucked up in bed for the night? Truthfully?

Do you wear a lifejacket on a cross channel ferry? Do you wear one on a cruise ship along the thames or on a gondola in Venice? Of course you don't!!!

Obviously most people who go out on RIBs were lifejackets - and quite rightly!!! That is NOT the point I am trying to make but as usual people would rather just go on the offensive.

Sadly most accidents occur when least expected - as you say in solent lock they are vital - to be honest many accidents happen on the pontoon - it is very easy to slip and hit your head - so where do you draw the line?

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by qcamel

You may ridicule my idea of putting a mobile phone in a plastic bag but if the well founded boat your are on suddenly hits a wave wrong and capsizes throwing you into the water you may just be glad of it!!! What uses are Epirbs - flares - vhf radios etc when they are in your upside down boat that is rapidly drifting away from you???

The point of fins on an open RIB is that if you capsize they may end up in the water with you - would make it a hell of a lot easier to swim to shore - unless you only find 1 and you go around in circles.

So your fins float up to where you have landed and the EPIRB has sunk without trace.... [/QUOTE]

if the EPIRB was in a cabin or locker quite possibly - or attached to your liferaft which is still under your RIB!!!

[wavecrosschris]

id draw the line in the situation just before falling in the sea without one and then realising I - could - have been wearing one.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by three-rex

Might be harder to swim with a lifejacket on, but it's a ffff-sight easier to sink without one!

Sounds like they both got very tired and at some point, both of them went under, rescusitated once, and failed the second - with a life jacket, the submergence wouldn't have happened.

At last a rational response and not just an attack!!!

Very good points but what people often don't realise is that the cold usually kills someone before you drown. Even in our waters in June. In the depths of winter it is even more likely. The bloke who survived came very close to death himself - another hour could have made all the difference - lifejacket wouldn't have been much use then.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

Why not keep a VHF handy, why not go to sea in a boat that doesnt have knackered bilge pumps and knackered non return valves and knackered wiring and dirty great holes in the deck, and out of date flares!! The boat was sinking before they left port!

I hope none of the families concerned are reading this. For a start the boat was NOT sinking before it left port!!!

Secondly the "dirty great holes" were actually missing bolts from the A frame which the crew probably didn't realise were so vital - it was these holes that allowed water from the too low deck to get into the hold - this caused a loss of what little stability the boat had.

The problem was the boat had been built overweight and the freeboard was lower than intended. As far as the men were concerned they paid good money for a "proper" fishing boat.

They set out on a nice day in their new boat very close to land - who can blame them for being a bit over eager?

You mention "out of date flares" - shock horror. For a start flares can last way past their sell by date - secondly even if they had bought a massive offshore pack they would never have got to use them as they were stuck in the cabin anyway.

[codprawn]

Anyway I give up - most of you would obviously rather attack me than try to have a rational discussion on safety.

[Tideway]

Originally Posted by codprawn

At last a rational response and not just an attack!!!

Very good points but what people often don't realise is that the cold usually kills someone before you drown. Even in our waters in June. In the depths of winter it is even more likely. The bloke who survived came very close to death himself - another hour could have made all the difference - lifejacket wouldn't have been much use then.

I agree that cold kills and is probably the main danger after trying to remain afloat. But... by actively swimming you are going to drop your core temperature much faster and therefore hasten the onset of hypothermia. It is pretty difficult to swim in a lifejacket, but it will keep you afloat and maintain an airway if you are unconscious. In many situations when out at sea, you are not going to be able to swim anywhere meaningful. That is why the HELP postion and staying with an upturned boat/wreckage (preferably out of the water and on top of it) or with the other survivors are preached in the various sea survival courses. I'm not denying that there may be situations where swimming for it may make sense, but they are not as likely as the requirement to stay put and wait for help. But that is a powerful reason for flares & spare H/held VHF on your l'jacket belt...

So generally, as accidents are accidents and you can't predict them, IMHO I would always I would wear a lifejacket.

Useful debate though, so thanks for starting it Codders.

t

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Anyway I give up - most of you would obviously rather attack me than try to have a rational discussion on safety.

I would quite happily have a rational discussion on safety, however i maintain that your express intention when starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up a report.
I also hope that no members of the family read this thread, to see that someone is suggesting that their loved one may have survived had he had a pair of flippers would be unthinkable.
You claim to have read the report on numerous occasions, may I suggest if that is the case you either stop ignoring the conclusions and recommendations detailed by the MAIB or at least read them properly.
Also, your post above appears to be quoting my previous post in a way which suggests my angry faces refer to the condition of the Pamela. You have conveniently left out my response to your astonishing comment about David Walliams, I like spin as much as the next man, but I believe you are more than a little out of order with what you appear to be insinuating on this occasion.

For the record I think carrying your mobile in a plastic bag is a perfectly resonable idea. I am far more convinced however that in the first instance you should ensure that the safety equipment which is specifically designed for marine use is present, maintained correctly and in good working order and most importantly, used.

Now would you like to wind your neck in and have a discussion on safety, or are you going to keep throwing your toys out of your pram?

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

I would quite happily have a rational discussion on safety, however i maintain that your express intention when starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up a report.
I also hope that no members of the family read this thread, to see that someone is suggesting that their loved one may have survived had he had a pair of flippers would be unthinkable.
You claim to have read the report on numerous occasions, may I suggest if that is the case you either stop ignoring the conclusions and recommendations detailed by the MAIB or at least read them properly.
Also, your post above appears to be quoting my previous post in a way which suggests my angry faces refer to the condition of the Pamela. You have conveniently left out my response to your astonishing comment about David Walliams, I like spin as much as the next man, but I believe you are more than a little out of order with what you appear to be insinuating on this occasion.

For the record I think carrying your mobile in a plastic bag is a perfectly resonable idea. I am far more convinced however that in the first instance you should ensure that the safety equipment which is specifically designed for marine use is present, maintained correctly and in good working order and most importantly, used.

Now would you like to wind your neck in and have a discussion on safety, or are you going to keep throwing your toys out of your pram?

If you maintain that I started this thread JUST to accuse the MAIB there is no point in taking this any further.

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Mugshot

For the record I think carrying your mobile in a plastic bag is a perfectly resonable idea.

I agree. It's having the phone in a pocket unprotected that I disagreed with, (especially when we're talking about RIBsters and working mariners for whom getting wet is a pretty common occurence.) From experience (two, actually) I can attest that cell phones and water do not play nice together (and the water usually wins.)

For the record, I would suggest getting something better than the kitchen ziplock bag, though. Though they do a pretty good job of keeping liquids in, they're not stellar at keeping liquids out.

There are very heavy ziplock type bags that are designed for this type of use, or a pretty wide variety of clamshell cases that are advertised as being submersible, at least to some degree.

jky

[BogMonster]

Aquapac for me, waterproof and it floats

It gets bashed around a bit so it will not last forever but I check it for bubbles in the sink every so often and it is still OK. At twenty quid it is cheaper than any new phone so mine goes in it every time out... though when they say you can use the phone in the pac, they are stretching it a bit, you can, but you can't hear very much and apparently it sounds to the other person like you are talking through a duvet.

I now have the aquapacced phone round my neck, and a waterproof VHF clipped to my lifejacket, both of which seem to me to make sense on an open boat in case you fall in the oggin.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

I agree. It's having the phone in a pocket unprotected that I disagreed with, (especially when we're talking about RIBsters and working mariners for whom getting wet is a pretty common occurence.) From experience (two, actually) I can attest that cell phones and water do not play nice together (and the water usually wins.)

You're absolutely right jky, I think having the mobile is fine and dandy so long as you understand that it is at best a back up to the more recognised safety equipment.
The difference is also in this instance the fact that, as has already been pointed out, mobiles and harsh working environments don't usually mix well.
It is imperative to treat the sea with the utmost respect, codprawn says he issues all his passengers with bags for their phones just in case, yet in other instances you see people apparently arguing the merits of not wearing a life jacket or complaining that their human rights would be infringing if they were not allowed to skipper their boat after an extended session at the pub.
How often are the RNLI or others called out or have their work made even harder due to people being inadequately prepared?