Tragic accident findings

[Biggles]

Might be a bit of a sissy idea. But how about when not bombing around at sea on your Rib you wear a buoyancy aid for the mundane launching and mooring tasks. Saves paying for auto jackets that go off unnecessarily and gives you a means of floating.

Also personally over a period of time I am going to equip four lifejackets with a waterproof VHF radio each. In the Solent that should be enough to talk to the rescue services if required. My max passenger load will be four 99% of the time.

Also anything less than a ship then I think you should always have some sort of a lifejacket on. They are so convenient and lightweight its silly not to. And given the number of accidents on trawlers its probably time that the crews were eduacated to wear drysuits/survival suits all the time. It might be inconvenient but it would save a lot of lives.

IMHO.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Also anything less than a ship then I think you should always have some sort of a lifejacket on. They are so convenient and lightweight its silly not to. And given the number of accidents on trawlers its probably time that the crews were eduacated to wear drysuits/survival suits all the time. It might be inconvenient but it would save a lot of lives.

IMHO.

They would love that in July when it's 30C - especially when they collapse with heat exhaustion. Remember it was June when this accident happened. The trouble is it takes the water so long to warm up - the sea is prob at it's warmest in Sept/Oct after the summer has gone.

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by codprawn

They would love that in July when it's 30C - especially when they collapse with heat exhaustion. Remember it was June when this accident happened.

Well, you will notice that most rescue orgs wear their lifejackets no matter what the temp. Love it or not, they'll have them on.

jky

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Well, you will notice that most rescue orgs wear their lifejackets no matter what the temp. Love it or not, they'll have them on.

jky

Yes but in fairness they tend to be travelling at high speeds and not hauling in pots and nets which does tend to make you quite warm!!!

[MustRib]

about "if only" ...and that is what we should take from it.
We dont have limitless budget when equipping a boat.
Lots of things would have made a difference in this case,
and who knew whether the unfortunate people involved had told themselves,
as I have, when I get a little more money I will get a personal epirb, a handheld VHF attached to a lifejacket, a float free liferaft etc etc....
It does not stop you wanting to go out and enjoy yourself on the water, but responsibility for your safety and that of your crew rests with you! You have to accept the risks involved - you can only do your best to minimise the risks.
I imagine there were several moments when the men in the water were thinking "if only I had got a ..such and such .."
No sense in back biting and recriminatory comments here. Just consider your own safety equipment (or lack of it) and address those issues as a matter of priority. Wishing you had spent the £200 or £300 on the right safety kit ?...well... if you ever are so unlucky as to find yourself in their situation, I'm sure you will be thinking of all the things you had spent that sort of money on, when personal safety should have come first.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by MustRib

about "if only" ...and that is what we should take from it.
We dont have limitless budget when equipping a boat.
Lots of things would have made a difference in this case,
and who knew whether the unfortunate people involved had told themselves,
as I have, when I get a little more money I will get a personal epirb, a handheld VHF attached to a lifejacket, a float free liferaft etc etc....
It does not stop you wanting to go out and enjoy yourself on the water, but responsibility for your safety and that of your crew rests with you! You have to accept the risks involved - you can only do your best to minimise the risks.
I imagine there were several moments when the men in the water were thinking "if only I had got a ..such and such .."
No sense in back biting and recriminatory comments here. Just consider your own safety equipment (or lack of it) and address those issues as a matter of priority. Wishing you had spent the £200 or £300 on the right safety kit ?...well... if you ever are so unlucky as to find yourself in their situation, I'm sure you will be thinking of all the things you had spent that sort of money on, when personal safety should have come first.

Much of the enjoyment of ribbing can come from the adrenaline you get when doing something which carries something of a risk, take away the risk and you take away much of the enjoyment. I doubt that any of us here wish to be wrapped in cotton wool for our own safety.
I however believe that some things should be considered essential, if you go out on a boat (not a ferry!) you should be wearing a life jacket, and you should ensure your boat is adequately maintained. I have nothing even remotely resembling a bottomless pit of money to spend on safety equipment and if I did and I put everything you can buy on my boat it'd probably sink with the extra weight. I do however ensure that I and any passengers I have are wearing a life jacket before they step on the boat, its as automatic as putting my seat belt on in the car.
One of the tragic things about the Pamela is that they already had all the things which you said you would like if you had the money, but they didnt use them, if they had things may have been different, its such a shame that a man lost his life in what must have been the most terrifying of circumstances, whilst another will I'm sure be haunted by his experience for the rest of his life.
If some very basic safety precautions had been followed things could possibly have been very very different for so many people and thats the lesson i think we should learn from this.

[Biggles]

Whatever peoples thoughts are about this. It is good that we can talk about this and by doing so raise awareness to the fact that boating can be risky and we should at least be aware that it can all go horribly wrong.

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Whatever peoples thoughts are about this. It is good that we can talk about this and by doing so raise awareness to the fact that boating can be risky and we should at least be aware that it can all go horribly wrong.

Agreed .. less rants .. more discussion

[jyasaki]

I had a similar discussion about diving a few months ago. Specifically, about training, and practicing emergency procedures. That degenerated into a list of emergency equipment that one should carry on a dive.

One person insisted his students learn how to deal with a failure that, as far as he and I know, has never occured (both second stages packing up, requiring him to remove the BC, turn off tank, somehow purge the system, remove first stage, and then surface breathing off the tank valve. He saw it as a reasonable exercise, because "if that happened to you, you'd be dead if you didn't know how to do this." Truth be told, I'd be dead if it happened and I did know how to do that.

Another dove with a handheld GPS and VHF in case he got lost. (not a bad idea for offshore stuff, but this guy was diving in a bay, off the beach. Seemed like overkill to me.)

Point is, you can't be prepared for all emergencies. If you try, you soon find that you have immobilised yourself from the weight of safety gear, or that you are worrying so much about what *might* happen that you never enjoy what is happening.

jky

[MustRib]

I want to enjoy myself knowing that I am covered with adequate safety equipment.... instead of being anxious about not.

[fred bolton]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Anyway I give up - most of you would obviously rather attack me than try to have a rational discussion on safety.

At last you've got something right

[Milan]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

I had a similar discussion about diving a few months ago. Specifically, about training, and practicing emergency procedures. That degenerated into a list of emergency equipment that one should carry on a dive.

One person insisted his students learn how to deal with a failure that, as far as he and I know, has never occured (both second stages packing up, requiring him to remove the BC, turn off tank, somehow purge the system, remove first stage, and then surface breathing off the tank valve. He saw it as a reasonable exercise, because "if that happened to you, you'd be dead if you didn't know how to do this." Truth be told, I'd be dead if it happened and I did know how to do that.

Another dove with a handheld GPS and VHF in case he got lost. (not a bad idea for offshore stuff, but this guy was diving in a bay, off the beach. Seemed like overkill to me.)

Point is, you can't be prepared for all emergencies. If you try, you soon find that you have immobilised yourself from the weight of safety gear, or that you are worrying so much about what *might* happen that you never enjoy what is happening.

jky

Go and find the instructor and tell him to stop teaching shit if your first and second stage both failed your tank would be empty of air anyway due to fact that both stages are one way valves I would like to see him do that in Dorothea Quarry at thirty metres and then see how he gets on

[Sixy_the_red]

Originally Posted by Milan

Go and find the instructor and tell him to stop teaching shit if your first and second stage both failed your tank would be empty of air anyway due to fact that both stages are one way valves I would like to see him do that in Dorothea Quarry at thirty metres and then see how he gets on

That'll be the shallow end of Dorothea then...I thought they'd closed her anyway?

I do agree that teaching emergency procedure for both 2nd stages failing is complete rot - it is possible for a DV to fail closed though...and so long as there IS air in the tank it is quite possible to breath of a free-flow. At the end of the day, that's why you always dive with a buddy - the chances of all 4 DVs failing has to be next to zero. Better off to train proper dive dicipline and buddy breathing techniques.

Proper training is essential though - it helps prevent panic (which, at least when I trained, was reconned to be the biggest killer amongst novice divers). It makes a massive difference when the unexpected or unusual does happen.

WRT the original point of the thread, I can see both arguments (and I do think some of the reactions were WAY OTT.) Yes, swimming in a lifejacked is extremely hard work, but at least you can stop for a rest. I always wear one, but insist on manual inflate, so I suppose that's wrong too? The idea of keeping fins (not flippers!) on board sounds reasonable to me, although they do tend to sink, there would be nothing to stop you attaching some form of bouyancy to them. Finning on your back with an inflated lifejacket couldn't by any easier IMO.

Mugshot - I recon you could wear all the safety gear in the world and you'd still get a massive buzz from RIBing. I still get a buzz on my bike and I wear full leathers, crash lid and armoured gloves, but I know its still going to hurt if I part company with my steed...

[codprawn]

Seems like I am NOT the only person to criticise the MAIB - I have seen a few articles in the boating press lately saying the same sort of thing - that the MAIB have their own agenda and word their reports accordingly.

There is an article in the latest RIB International which also questions an MAIB report.

Also a great write up on Nauti Buoy!!!

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Milan

Go and find the instructor and tell him to stop teaching shit if your first and second stage both failed your tank would be empty of air anyway due to fact that both stages are one way valves I would like to see him do that in Dorothea Quarry at thirty metres and then see how he gets on

I would, but he's on the opposite coast (I think. Might have been in the Great Lakes, which is only 2/3 of the way across the US.)

The argument was carried on on the diving section of a forum similar to this one.

My main argument was that if both 2nd stages failed, but you still had pressure in the tank with the tank valve open, you'd never get the 1st stage off the tank anyway. But enough about that.

Sixy; there are arguments for and against either auto or manual inflate, and both have merits. I'm not going to go there. I will say it's better to have either than none, though.

jky

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by codprawn

There is an article in the latest RIB International which also questions an MAIB report.

What did the article say?

jky

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

What did the article say?

jky

It is about a separate incident altogether. In brief: rib accident where occupants thrown from boat). MAIB imply alchohol was a causative factor (which RI disputed), and that the crew should both have been wearing life jackets (as opposed to buoyancy aids). 1 man died (wearing a lifejacket - man. inflation - not activated) and another survived (wearing a buoyancy aid).

Understandably RI questioned the appropriateness of the claim that a lifejacket was more suitable (accident in the solent) especially since the survivor was the one NOT wearing the full lifejacket. The author of the RI article also expressed concern that there was insufficient investigation of why the killcord did not work as intended.

When I read the RI article I got the feeling that the author had a chip on his shoulder (that may be down to the journalistic style rather than anything else). Although I would agree that lifejacket/killcord issues were poorly adressed by the MAIB.

I think the MAIB report was discussed here before.

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by Sixy_the_red

Mugshot - I recon you could wear all the safety gear in the world and you'd still get a massive buzz from RIBing. I still get a buzz on my bike and I wear full leathers, crash lid and armoured gloves, but I know its still going to hurt if I part company with my steed...

I think I may have been a little misunderstood, apologies if I was.
I wasnt suggesting that the way to gain maximum enjoyment from ribbing was to wear a minimum of safety equipment. Any boating and more particularly ribbing can and does carry some risk (same as riding a motorbike), but that is or can be at least some of the attraction. If I could afford every possible piece of safety equipment I would have it and it would not affect my enjoyment one bit, however I cant afford it, but I do ensure that I have a fixed VHF, a handheld VHF, a life jacket for everyone on board, flares and a well maintained boat.
I wasn't suggesting you need a minimum of safety equipment to enjoy yourself, I was suggesting there should be a minimum level of safety equipment required before you leave shore.

[jyasaki]

Thanks, Polwart. I had no idea what Codders was talking about. Rib International is not, unfortunately, available on every newsstand around here.

jky

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Thanks, Polwart. I had no idea what Codders was talking about. Rib International is not, unfortunately, available on every newsstand around here.

jky

Sorry about that - it's not that easy to find here either!!!