Tragic accident findings

[codprawn]

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Pamela%20S.pdf

I always find these reports to be essential reading - try to learn from OTHER people's mistakes could save your life.

This one was very close to home for me - took part in some of the search but to no avail.

It is a long report but some of the findings from the MAIB I strongly disagree with - I expected a reputable body such as this to be totally impartial and not try to "sex up" the report but they have done in certain areas.

Almost at the start you will see they say that "if the men had been wearing lifejackets they would have BOTH survived". This is nonsense as you will see from the report. They were in the water for about 10 hours - a lot longer than anyone should survive in cold water - even though it was June the temp was only 12.7C. One man eventually made it ashore after his mate had died.

There WAS a lifejacket in the cabin but the boat went down so fast nobody had time to get it. The conditions were very good at the time. Not many people in normal boats were a lifejacket at all times!!!

The report also attacks the kind of bilge pumps they had fitted. They were 3x Rule 500gph automatics but wired to operate in manual mode only. Obviously these were totally inadequate for a commercial fishing boat but the MAIB report says "These were of a type used on a PWC ie a jetski. This is nonsense - I have one on my own RIB and they are fitted to many pleasure craft.

I think the biggest lesson to learn is that the conditions were good and they sank about 1/2 a mile from shore in a busy area but nobody saw them. They had flares in the cabin but the boat just sank to fast. With the tides in the area they just couldn't get themselves to safety despite being very fit men. They had NO means of summoning help.

I know mobile phones are no subsitute for a VHF but most crew and passengers will have them in their pockets at ALL times. Obviously they are useless in salt water which is why I issue my passengers with small Tesco ziplock freezer bags. If you judge it right you can get enough air into them to make the phone float without it being too bulky. It is scary to think that a trick like this that costs pennies will save someone's life!!!

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Almost at the start you will see they say that "if the men had been wearing lifejackets they would have BOTH survived". This is nonsense as you will see from the report.

It actually says "If the men had been wearing lifejackets it is probable that they would have both survived."

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. It's not a certainty, but given that the skipper survived without a lifejacket there's got to be a good chance they both could have survived with lifejackets.

John

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

It actually says "If the men had been wearing lifejackets it is probable that they would have both survived."

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. It's not a certainty, but given that the skipper survived without a lifejacket there's got to be a good chance they both could have survived with lifejackets.

John

With lifejackets on they would have found it even harder to swim. The bloke who survived eventually made it ashore. He was very close to the end - a lesser person would have been long gone which the report does mention.

The only way I think a lifejacket would have helped would have been if they had lights and whistles - but that is merely to attract attention of course.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The report also attacks the kind of bilge pumps they had fitted. They were 3x Rule 500gph automatics but wired to operate in manual mode only. Obviously these were totally inadequate for a commercial fishing boat but the MAIB report says "These were of a type used on a PWC ie a jetski. This is nonsense - I have one on my own RIB and they are fitted to many pleasure craft.

The report says "Rule is a specialist company supplying a range of marine equipment, and they recommend that the 500 gph pumps are used on leisure vessels, specifically Personal Water Craft (Jet Skis)." It doesn't say they're only used on PWCs. They're fine for shifting the bit of water that gets left in the drain well on a RIB, but not much use for much else -- but you know that, so what's your argument?

John

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by codprawn

With lifejackets on they would have found it even harder to swim.

You reckon? I haven't tested it, but I'd put money on someone wearing a lifejacket covering more ground over 10 hours than someone without.

John

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

The report says "Rule is a specialist company supplying a range of marine equipment, and they recommend that the 500 gph pumps are used on leisure vessels, specifically Personal Water Craft (Jet Skis)." It doesn't say they're only used on PWCs. They're fine for shifting the bit of water that gets left in the drain well on a RIB, but not much use for much else -- but you know that, so what's your argument?

John

Specifically is the key word - implying it is SPECIFIC to jetskis - despite Rule saying "Many small craft". I feel this is a deliberate attempt to make things sound worse.

The cause of the accident was a very low freeboard which caused water to get in through some holes in the deck as bolts were missing. I know these pumps weren't really suitable but if they had been wired in correctly the boat wouldn't have sunk.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

You reckon? I haven't tested it, but I'd put money on someone wearing a lifejacket covering more ground over 10 hours than someone without.

John

Funnily enough they don't wear them in the Olympics - in fact they even shave of hair etc to be more hydrodynamic - a bulky lifejacket is very difficult to swim in!!!

[codprawn]

Instead of picking fault with all my comments how about something constructive we can ALL learn by? What do you feel about the very simple idea of putting a phone in a plastic bag?

[matt h]

me thinks thats a superb and cost free idea, and also think oyu could use it whilst its in the bag! im going to use that idea Thanks Mr Codprawn!! keep em coming!!

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Funnily enough they don't wear them in the Olympics - in fact they even shave of hair etc to be more hydrodynamic - a bulky lifejacket is very difficult to swim in!!!

Now you're just being daft. What possible parallel is there between an extended open-water survival situation and top athletes doing a few lengths of a swimming pool?

Originally Posted by codprawn

Instead of picking fault with all my comments how about something constructive we can ALL learn by? What do you feel about the very simple idea of putting a phone in a plastic bag?

I think it's a good idea. It's a pity you decided to tack it on at the end of a load of old cobblers!

You strongly disagree with parts of the report and imply that the MAIB report is neither reputable nor impartial. I disagree with you. Why shouldn't I pick fault with your comments when I think they are wrong?

Originally Posted by codprawn

The cause of the accident was a very low freeboard which caused water to get in through some holes in the deck as bolts were missing. I know these pumps weren't really suitable but if they had been wired in correctly the boat wouldn't have sunk.

Might not have. The pumps were tested and found to be capable of removing 3300 litres per hour. The estimated water intake was up to 4000 litres per hour. I wouldn't want to be on board that boat while it was shipping 700Kg of water each hour!

John

[benc]

Out in the open sea, I believe a lifejacket will help no end when swimming, I reckon swimming backwards might be easier though ?
- I havent been in the situation to try with an inflated life jacket - but has now made me curious, so will be trying this year.

Olympic swimmers swim mostly sub surface, certainly not something you'd be doing in the sea!

[benc]

Originally Posted by codprawn

With lifejackets on they would have found it even harder to swim. The bloke who survived eventually made it ashore. He was very close to the end - a lesser person would have been long gone which the report does mention.

The only way I think a lifejacket would have helped would have been if they had lights and whistles - but that is merely to attract attention of course.

So, are you saying - if the only way to survive, was by swimming to shore... you should remove your life jacket?

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

load of old cobblers!


John

[Jono]

Now, Oh Lanky One?

What was Matt's original rule about arguing?..….something about “levels” and “experience”… and you wonder about my blood pressure…Oh, My.

[thorper]

Originally Posted by benc

So, are you saying - if the only way to survive, was by swimming to shore... you should remove your life jacket?

On the basic sea survival course I did we were taught to form a crocodile by wrapping your legs around the person in front and everyone using their arms to propel you backwards. It seemed quite effective in the pool, and the chunky floaty block lifejackects we were wearing didnt really get in the way.

It had a few advantages:

1) Linked together made a bigger 'target' to be visible
2) Bright lifejackets (if worn of course) are more visible than wet standard clothing
3) Very easy to stop and rest
4) Keeps everyone together

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Jono

What was Matt's original rule

yus dat didd cum too mynd wen i red dis thred butt itt iz kwite amewsin wochin a reezonably (reezonably inn a lewse sawt ov waiy) intelijunt pirson tryin too argew wiv a iddiot.



codprorn shud noe beter

gaRf

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by benc

So, are you saying - if the only way to survive, was by swimming to shore... you should remove your life jacket?

I wonder if David Walliams would have made it across the English Channel if he had been wearing a lifejacket? he managed over 20 miles quite well I thought!!!

I know all the advice is to huddle together to keep warm and not to waste energy by trying to swim etc BUT there are so many cases where the opposite seems to be true. Obviously a lot comes down to the individual concerned - if you are not a strong swimmer then huddling together is the best option.

The bloke who survived in the accident I am talking about made it ashore himself - if he hadn't he would be dead - simple.

A lifejacket impeads a swimmer considerably - that is a well know fact. Obviously throwing it away is not a good idea - maybe deflate it and then blow it back up again when you need to rest.

Great idea No2 - keep some fins handy - that way you can keep your lifejacket inflated AND swim successfully!!!

One thing people should try to remember - go with the flow - you won't get anywhere swimming against a strong current so try to let the current help you even if it means a further distance.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by The Garfish

yus dat didd cum too mynd wen i red dis thred butt itt iz kwite amewsin wochin a reezonably (reezonably inn a lewse sawt ov waiy) intelijunt pirson tryin too argew wiv a iddiot.



codprorn shud noe beter

gaRf

You are a literary genius - it's about time you were given an award!!!

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by benc

So, are you saying - if the only way to survive, was by swimming to shore... you should remove your life jacket?

...or would it be even safer not to bother with the boat either?

[Mugshot]

Originally Posted by codprawn

A lifejacket impeads a swimmer considerably - that is a well know fact. Obviously throwing it away is not a good idea - maybe deflate it and then blow it back up again when you need to rest.

Great idea No2 - keep some fins handy - that way you can keep your lifejacket inflated AND swim successfully!!!

Stupid idea No1 - swim along till you're shagged out and out of puff, then blow a freaking life jacket up

Stupid idea No2 - FINS!!!!???!!!!

Why not keep a VHF handy, why not go to sea in a boat that doesnt have knackered bilge pumps and knackered non return valves and knackered wiring and dirty great holes in the deck, and out of date flares!! The boat was sinking before they left port!

As for David Walliams, heres an idea, lets all carry a huge vat of goose grease just in case we need to take a long and unexpected swim.