Training vs Experience

[rama]

To quote codprawn (ish) as i dont have a add quote option.

"I have just completed my level 2 course and will soon be taking my advanced."

Please correct me if i am wrong, but as far i was aware you should have at least 2 seasons experience (or a load of experience on the water) between level 2 and advanced. i dont think a few trips out in a little rib could count as either, so is the RYA partly to blame? some schools doing favours, signing people off for more than they are realy capable of or even letting them on the course. Is this instilling a sense of " I have my advanced certificate which is the best around, I also have my own boat and maintain it myself (cause its cheaper than paying a profesional) and why should i need the help of a voulenteer (who may or may not be risking their own life) !!!

Im sure this will start more arguing but eh....

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by rama

To quote codprawn (ish) as i dont have a add quote option.

"I have just completed my level 2 course and will soon be taking my advanced."

Please correct me if i am wrong, but as far i was aware you should have at least 2 seasons experience (or a load of experience on the water) between level 2 and advanced. i dont think a few trips out in a little rib could count as either, so is the RYA partly to blame? some schools doing favours, signing people off for more than they are realy capable of or even letting them on the course. Is this instilling a sense of " I have my advanced certificate which is the best around, I also have my own boat and maintain it myself (cause its cheaper than paying a profesional) and why should i need the help of a voulenteer (who may or may not be risking their own life) !!!

Im sure this will start more arguing but eh....

How do you know what experience I have??? I have been around boats all my life - brought up by the Red Sea and did my first scuba diving when I was 8!!! My father has always had boats - from little speed boats up to an 85' ex patrol boat he restored himself.

The level 2 is really basic stuff - it makes me cringe to think of people like Steve Curtis having to do it!!!!

As to a few trips out in a little RIB they are likely to teach you FAR more than you would learn in a bigger boat - you REALLY have to watch the weather like a hawk and you are so close to the water you have a much better idea of what is going on!!!

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The level 2 is really basic stuff - it makes me cringe to think of people like Steve Curtis having to do it!!!!

I was reliably informed last year that Steve Curtis is really hopeless at low speed manoevuring.

[Richard B]

And another strange thing...

Originally Posted by codprawn

I have been around boats all my life

You obviously haven't been mooring those boats to anything though, have you? Otherwise you would know your knots...

Originally Posted by codprawn

One thing I REALLY need to practice though - knots - a bloody disaster!!!

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I was reliably informed last year that Steve Curtis is really hopeless at low speed manoevuring.

I always maintain that any fool can drive fast and make it look good, its the slow stuff that is the hardest to master.

Sorry Steve

This is true of boats, cars and bikes.

Regards

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by Nate

This thread seems to have addressed the perpetual dilemma of experience vs training. Here's my take...

........Research has also shown that for the training experience to be effective it should be delivered over an extended period - there's a direct correlation between length of training and retention of salient facts;.......
Ideally training and experience should be seen as complementary. An idealised model goes something like this:-

(1) Unconscious incompetence......
(2) Conscious incompetence.....
(3) Conscious competence.....
(4) Unconscious Competence........
(5) Unconscious incompetence......

Nate, This model fails to take into account natural ability, some people regardless of how much training you give them will never have the ability to perform certain tasks and equally some people will take to a new task like a duck to water.
People with a natural ability for a particular task find themselves in a state of ‘Unconscious Competence’ with minimal or even no training.

I only mention this because this model has always annoyed me and I think it is misleading.
Des

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

....People with a natural ability for a particular task find themselves in a state of ‘Unconscious Competence’ with minimal or even no training.

I only mention this because this model has always annoyed me and I think it is misleading.
Des

What about us, "naturally Incomptent" then? Huh! Talk about discrimination...

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by Jono

What about us, "naturally Incomptent" then? Huh! Talk about discrimination...

The great thing about Incompetents is that if you can temper it with a high level of ignorance you are oblivious to it Des

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

The great thing about Incompetents is that if you can temper it with a high level of ignorance you are oblivious to it Des

So now we have another category to add..

Unconsciously, naturally incompetent and ignorant.


…and I think we could also add “arrogant”? The sort of people who can’t be taught… ‘cause we... err.. I mean they.... already know-it-all….

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by Jono

So now we have another category to add..

Unconsciously, naturally incompetent and ignorant.


…and I think we could also add “arrogant”? The sort of people who can’t be taught… ‘cause we... err.. I mean they.... already know-it-all….

isn’t arrogances conceited ignorance Des

[donutsina911]

Originally Posted by Mollulnan

Forget all this danger at sea stuff for a mo.!! What about the danger on the roads of West Sussex that is Donuts in his 911. The guy admits to being a raving liability!!

10 years driving, no (own fault) accidents, full no claims bonus, military driving courses up the ying yang, so I wouldnt say I'm a raving liability - but still not afraid to acknowledge that I'm far from an expert driver and that my better half is probably safer at the time of writing (inexperience means that she is naturally more cautious and more likely to stick to road laws)...if you fancy a few laps at goodwood molly, give me a shout!

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by codprawn

As to a few trips out in a little RIB they are likely to teach you FAR more than you would learn in a bigger boat - you REALLY have to watch the weather like a hawk and you are so close to the water you have a much better idea of what is going on!!!

OMG! It seems that because I have never been anywhere in a really tiny boat I am therefore incompetant and have no idea what is going on!

Did my Yachtmaster Offshore in a large Princess, and have had quite a few hard boats and RIBs over the years, but nothing under 5.5 metres.

By the way I think the point that was being made was the experience between the level 2 and advanced tickets, not total experience, but if you're that good why not just go for the Advanced or the Coastal skipper / Yachtmasters theory and follow it up with a practical - much more use for someone of your experience I would have thought?

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Cookee

OMG! It seems that because I have never been anywhere in a really tiny boat I am therefore incompetant and have no idea what is going on!

Did my Yachtmaster Offshore in a large Princess, and have had quite a few hard boats and RIBs over the years, but nothing under 5.5 metres.

By the way I think the point that was being made was the experience between the level 2 and advanced tickets, not total experience, but if you're that good why not just go for the Advanced or the Coastal skipper / Yachtmasters theory and follow it up with a practical - much more use for someone of your experience I would have thought?

Did I say that??? NO - I said it gave you a far better idea!!! My instructor has done a lot of Sea Kayaking - made me realise he will know far more about tides and currents than even a Yachtie - when you have to paddle all the time like that you WILL know all about tides turning etc!!!

As to going for the Advanced I wanted to but was told on here that you HAD to do the level 2 first!!!!

[Louise]

Originally Posted by codprawn

As to going for the Advanced I wanted to but was told on here that you HAD to do the level 2 first!!!!

Really? I read just about everything that gets posted and I don't remember that being said publicly. Maybe it was while we were on holiday.

If we'd seen the post, I'm sure Richard or I would have put you straight as Richard did his Advanced without doing PB2 first. The instructor allowed this as he knew the RYA school that Richard had done Dayskipper practical with and knew he had done Dayskipper theory too and had a couple of years' experience in boats already.

[codprawn]

It was the GENERAL feeling I had after reading lots of different posts on the subject.

http://www.rib.net/forum/showthread....advanced+level

Alright they don't say here that you MSUT do level 2 first but that was the way I thought it had to be done.

Having said that I don't feel as if I have wasted my time or money - had a bloody great 2 days - the hours spent out in the rough on the second day were amazing!!!

[Louise]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Having said that I don't feel as if I have wasted my time or money - had a bloody great 2 days - the hours spent out in the rough on the second day were amazing!!!

Glad to hear it! IMHO, it is very rare that training is a complete waste of time. There's usually something new to learn or something you hadn't thought of or needed reminding of, and even if that's not the case, it's all experience!

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Louise

Glad to hear it! IMHO, it is very rare that training is a complete waste of time. There's usually something new to learn or something you hadn't thought of or needed reminding of, and even if that's not the case, it's all experience!

That's the word that counts!!! Experience!!! I learnt far more from my instructor AFTER the course was over when we went out for a play!!!

Bet I will learn quite a bit bringing my boat back from Guernsey in October!!!

I will shortly be doing my first aid course - have done plenty of them in the past but to be honest a waste of time without the experience which you will NEVER have until you do it for real - I may know how to tie off an artery and perform an emergency tracheoctomy but don't think I would be much good if I had to do it for real - one sight of blood or a needle and I am a goner!!!

[Louise]

Originally Posted by codprawn

That's the word that counts!!! Experience!!!

Thought you'd like that!

As a huge fan of lifelong learning, I think both training AND experience are important! Just my humble opinion.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Louise

Thought you'd like that!

As a huge fan of lifelong learning, I think both training AND experience are important! Just my humble opinion.

Totally agree - what really gets me these days is that the bits of paper outweigh the experience every time!!!

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I will shortly be doing my first aid course - have done plenty of them in the past but to be honest a waste of time without the experience which you will NEVER have until you do it for real - I may know how to tie off an artery and perform an emergency tracheoctomy but don't think I would be much good if I had to do it for real - one sight of blood or a needle and I am a goner!!!

WOW