Training vs Experience

[donutsina911]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The RNLI is getting TOO business orientated these days. I was shocked to discover that many of the crews don't have any other boating experience and are "trained" - it USED to be people who hadd the sea in their blood for generations that were picked!!!

as for being business orientated by training raw recruits - what's the problem with this - do you expect every crew member to be a decendant of Nelson or the first sea lord?! Jesus, codders, whilst having a nautical background and knowing an area of the coast intimately can be a big help, I would think first class training and bollocks the size of watermelons would be far more relevant than whether or not the sea is in your blood - my old boy is an admiral but I still cant tie knots or work out secondary port tides and certainly dont think I have the balls to do the work of the rnli (and for free)

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I was shocked to discover that many of the crews don't have any other boating experience and are "trained" - it USED to be people who hadd the sea in their blood for generations that were picked!!!

One of the most competent and experienced skippers I've ever been to sea with used to be a hairdresser. And some of the most appaling, dangerous and inconsiderate behaviour I've witnessed at sea has been from "professional" mariners, probably from sea-faring families over many generations I would guess. Being President of the United States of America is in George W Bush's family history, but it doesn't necessarily make him good at it.

[DGR]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The RNLI is getting TOO business orientated these days. I was shocked to discover that many of the crews don't have any other boating experience and are "trained" - it USED to be people who hadd the sea in their blood for generations that were picked!!!

I suspect that it is simply that there aren't as many 'professional' seafaring folk around as there used to be (probably doesn't include places like the Solent etc). In our harbour, there are 8 full time people working commercially in/from the harbour - not enough to man the lifeboat.

If you volunteer for the RNLI - I don't think that they 'pick' you - they say thank you very much, and then try to prepare you to be the best that you can. Nowt wrong with that......is there?

D...

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by donutsina911

as for being business orientated by training raw recruits - what's the problem with this - do you expect every crew member to be a decendant of Nelson or the first sea lord?! Jesus, codders, whilst having a nautical background and knowing an area of the coast intimately can be a big help, I would think first class training and bollocks the size of watermelons would be far more relevant than whether or not the sea is in your blood - my old boy is an admiral but I still cant tie knots or work out secondary port tides and certainly dont think I have the balls to do the work of the rnli (and for free)

Training can NEVER be a sustitute for experience - I now have my level 2 and will shortly be doing the advanced - I wouldn't even pretend to be as competant as some of the lifeboat men I know who have been doing their stuff for the last 20 years!!!

As to local knowledge why do they have pilots on large ships that take over from the Captain who will have far more skill at handling his own ship???

Some of the worlds top mountain climbers have NO formal training - I think I would rather be with them than someone who has just completed some mountain leader course!!!

[Hugh Jardon]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Training can NEVER be a sustitute for experience - I now have my level 2 and will shortly be doing the advanced - I wouldn't even pretend to be as competant as some of the lifeboat men I know who have been doing their stuff for the last 20 years!!!

As to local knowledge why do they have pilots on large ships that take over from the Captain who will have far more skill at handling his own ship???

Some of the worlds top mountain climbers have NO formal training - I think I would rather be with them than someone who has just completed some mountain leader course!!!

let me pass you a shovel so you can dig deeper!!!!

[codprawn]

I TOTALLY agree with Jon Brooks - I have donated money to the RNLI most of my life and will continue to do so.

As to passing me a shovel - if everyone here thinks that training is more important than experience it is a very sad refelction on the way the world is going.

[DGR]

Deleted it - I was just repeating what others have said......(until it got quoted!!)

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by DGR

If I was at risk of drowning, and someone less competant than Lord Nelson saved me......sounds good to me!!

But the danger is someone with little REAL experience may not be able to save you!!!

[hard1]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I TOTALLY agree with Jon Brooks - I have donated money to the RNLI most of my life and will continue to do so.

As to passing me a shovel - if everyone here thinks that training is more important than experience it is a very sad refelction on the way the world is going.

Hark at yourself! There's literally thousands of experienced workforce of all descriptions on the scrapheap unable to find a job because youngsters with the ink hardly dry on their "training certificates" are getting all the work out there!

Their only crime is that they're over bloody 50! (Indeed, some people I know are barely in their '40's. You have been warned)

Don't get me started re: experience vs training....grrrrrr.....

[DGR]

Codders,

I understand what you are saying - but in some places, sometimes those people with years of experience DON'T EXIST. Read my earlier post. Or should we consider disbanding a valuable rescue service because we've run out of salty old sea dogs? What if the experienced ones don't want to be in the RNLI? Conscription for the oldies?

You are assuming that it is a decision that someone has made - it MAY have been forced upon them (the RNLI)!! In which case - they are doing the best they can with people who are prepared to sacrifice everything to help people out!!

I don't want to get into the experience vs qualification argument yet again - 'cos I agree with RichardB - but what is the alternative?

D...

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by hard1

Hark at yourself! There's literally thousands of experienced workforce of all descriptions on the scrapheap unable to find a job because youngsters with the ink hardly dry on their "training certificates" are getting all the work out there!

Their only crime is that they're over bloody 50! (Indeed, some people I know are barely in their '40's. You have been warned)

Don't get me started re: experience vs training....grrrrrr.....

That is EXACTLY what I am trying to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[donutsina911]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Training can NEVER be a sustitute for experience - I now have my level 2 and will shortly be doing the advanced - I wouldn't even pretend to be as competant as some of the lifeboat men I know who have been doing their stuff for the last 20 years!!!

As to local knowledge why do they have pilots on large ships that take over from the Captain who will have far more skill at handling his own ship???

Some of the worlds top mountain climbers have NO formal training - I think I would rather be with them than someone who has just completed some mountain leader course!!!

a decent training programme should include appropriate levels of real life experience - the royal marines mountain leader course is probably one of the hardest courses known to man and takes people from scratch to a high degree of competency through experiencing and overcoming real world challenges and if the poop hit the fan up a mountain, I know who I'd rather have next to me..

Local knowlege is important - the pilot example is a good one but not relevent to the rnli. A pilot helps RN captains into foreign ports because they do it every day and know the waters / hazards intimately. When it comes to shooting migs out the sky or getting a tanker through the south china sea, the pilot is going to be about as useful as a chocolate fireguard...In my opinion, what matters in the rnli is:

1. They've got the right kit to get to you
2. They know what to do when they get to you through decent training (new hq that is world leading)
3. They're committed / brave enough to be there in the first place

Experience comes with time served, hence new joiners dont become unit coxn immediately.

[Hugh Jardon]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I TOTALLY agree with Jon Brooks - I have donated money to the RNLI most of my life and will continue to do so.

As to passing me a shovel - if everyone here thinks that training is more important than experience it is a very sad refelction on the way the world is going.

Experience is good, training is sharing the experience learnt and gained by others.

no matter how experienced a person might be in some waters i suspect they will need training on some of the latest techniques, technologies and equipment so the two will always go hand in hand.

Also working on a RNLI boat is being part of a team, and they need to work together and train together so each one knows how to fulfil their role in times of stress and extreme circumstances. The armed forces dont employ people becuase they are experts or experienced in their job, they expect to train them, and previous experience can help.

in this day and age i suspect the profile of RNLI persons has changed so the RNLI need to move with the times as well.

They do a grand job and long may it continue.....

if i was in trouble out there i would be glad to see anyone who could help....RNLI or otherwise

[Mollers]

OK, let's use a motoring analogy. Would a newly qualified driver, whom has received a heap of training, be better able to drive,react in an emergency situation or be as road aware as someone that had been driving for 15+ years?

[RIVA]

i totaly agree with dounut

i think anyone that critises the rnli should talk to one of ther next of kin
and see what comitment means,


little less rnli bashing on here would not go a miss

[donutsina911]

Originally Posted by Mollulnan

OK, let's use a motoring analogy. Would a newly qualified driver, whom has received a heap of training, be better able to drive,react in an emergency situation or be as road aware as someone that had been driving for 15+ years?

Doesnt work..

I've been driving for about 10 years and I'm still hopeless, despite covering about 30,000 miles a year. My wife has been driving for just 15 months, before which she had about 40 lessons and has since taken the advanced course - she is infinitely more aware than I am and although I'd never admit it to her, much more able to react properly in an emergency situation than me..

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by RIVA

i totaly agree with dounut

i think anyone that critises the rnli should talk to one of ther next of kin
and see what comitment means,


little less rnli bashing on here would not go a miss

I hope you don't think I am RNLI bashing!!! Just wondering about the way they are heading in the future!!!

They are wonderfull people - I know several people in the RNLI - some of them aren't too keen on the way the organisation is heading either!!!

In fact it will be an RNLI cox who will be taking my RIB out first into the Loughor Estuary to show me how to avoid trouble.....

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by donutsina911

Doesnt work..

I've been driving for about 10 years and I'm still hopeless, despite covering about 30,000 miles a year. My wife has been driving for just 15 months, before which she had about 40 lessons and has since taken the advanced course - she is infinitely more aware than I am and although I'd never admit it to her, much more able to react properly in an emergency situation than me..

Of course, there are exceptions and you sound bloody exceptional!!! Where do you live? I'll avoid it!

[Mollers]

Forget all this danger at sea stuff for a mo.!! What about the danger on the roads of West Sussex that is Donuts in his 911. The guy admits to being a raving liability!!

[Nate]

This thread seems to have addressed the perpetual dilemma of experience vs training. Here's my take...

It's probably unfair to divide one from the other, after all training is experiential although sometimes not entirely practical. Likewise experience may prove nothing more than that an individual has survived a period of time performing a given task. Neither alone may count for much. Research has also shown that for the training experience to be effective it should be delivered over an extended period - there's a direct correlation between length of training and retention of salient facts; so the three day Yachtmaster course may find its graduates at somewhat of a loss four days after qualifying...

Ideally training and experience should be seen as complementary. An idealised model goes something like this:-

(1) Unconscious incompetence. The individual lacks ability to perform a task, but is unaware of their own incompetence.

(2) Conscious incompetence. The individual is now made aware of their performance failings.

(3) Conscious competence. The individual has now received training and is cosnciously integrating the training into their performance.

(4) Unconscious Competence. The individual is on top of their game. Experience combined with training allows them to perform the given task optimally with the minimum of reflection.

(5) Unconscious incompetence. The individual's performance has fallen off significantly - although they continue to believe themselves to be competent...

Let's be honest an acknowledge that we may all ocasionally be living on past glory - "The Older I Get The Better I Was" syndrome. Nothing beats experience, especially when integrated with an understanding that we never know it all, and an appropriate reminder from an expert is either going to be a bit of an eye opener, or maybe a pat on the back for being not quite as crap as we feared.

By the way I pay a modest amount per month via direct debit to the Lifeboats because I believe in what they do. I have no doubts about the value RNLI represent; the whole institution costs less than the annual House of Lords toilet paper bill. If I'm bobbing around Lyme Bay in a lifejacket I want the best trained and finest equipped crew to come and take me home. I'm glad they're independent for all the reasons Nos mentions - sod the Government, they'd look to make cost savings in the RNLI just to buy more bullets for Iraq.