Tube deterioration opinions?

[beamishken]

OK I had my hopes built up a little there with talk of 10 years warranty but I guess that's only for deterioration of the fabric and this looks like a glue problem .
I'd imagine if I started I could pull apart a lot more seams & I've already said (to the club) that this boat has a limited life and anything we do will be a "sticking Plaster" repair

Ribraff how do you think a manufacturer would approach being contacted several years out of warranty with a problem like this?
As I said they are a respected builder
No one within the club is realy complaining but the general feeling is these boats are sh1t and the club shouldn't buy another
Would it be reasonable to ask for a discounted retube?
I don't want to go to the builder with unreasonable expectations but I do think this problem stems from some deficit in the build process (is that a fair assumption?)

[diver 1]

You might find those tubes are polyurethane.

For comparison I had a boat by the same manufacturer and same material as that dating to 1998 on her original tubes and despite a lot of use they were like new - no patches - no delamination, etc. She is still 'as new' now with her new owner

Possibly a bad batch of glue?

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by diver 1

You might find those tubes are polyurethane.

For comparison I had a boat by the same manufacturer and same material as that dating to 1998 on her original tubes and despite a lot of use they were like new - no patches - no delamination, etc. She is still 'as new' now with her new owner

Possibly a bad batch of glue?

I did wonder if they weren't hypalon as they feel different to the ribcrafts and my own boats
I didn't realise the manufacturer actually offered pu tubes?
If you've identified the boat please don't mention the builder as I didn't start the thread to point fingers I was just looking for opinions
At the end of the day it's a club boat that gets well used and little love and wasn't paid for out of one man's pocket.
I'm surprised the club ordered a pu boat but you don't know what the committee at the time was thinking maybe they thought buy it cheap and replace it in a few years which used to be the norm. The club finances are not what they were and boats need to be kept longer . A new engine was fitted to 1 boat this year so maybe this boat will be top of the list for replacement or retube next winter

[ribraff]

It's always a good idea to speak to the manufacturer in the first instance, they may be sympathetic to your needs.

[office888]

The tube appears to be constructed from elastomer (CSM/CR), probably Pennel & Flipo origin.

The 10 year warranty being quoted typically only covers the fabric. The glued surfaces are usually treated under a shorter manufacturer's warranty. Not to mention, the 10 year warranty is almost always pro-rata.

The failure mode pictured is a "cohesive failure". In short, the adhesive did not stick to itself properly.

Possibly causes
1.) Age / oxidization (probably a huge factor here)
2.) Too dry before layup
3.) Too much humidity (Which causes #2)
4.) Bad glue batch

[jonp]

Wow thats terrible on a boats that not that old

When I bought my bought (Zodiac) it came with warnings not to use any cleaners with any silicon in them. With many fibreglass boat cleaners having silicon Ive had to buy special inflatable boat cleaners and UV protecting sprays.

The boat looks like water is beading on the surface like it would from waxing or silicon.

So could any of the damage be from using the wrong cleaners, does silicon in cleaners actually do any harm.

Jon

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by jonp

Wow thats terrible on a boats that not that old

When I bought my bought (Zodiac) it came with warnings not to use any cleaners with any silicon in them. With many fibreglass boat cleaners having silicon Ive had to buy special inflatable boat cleaners and UV protecting sprays.

The boat looks like water is beading on the surface like it would from waxing or silicon.

So could any of the damage be from using the wrong cleaners, does silicon in cleaners actually do any harm.

Jon

Silicone won't harm Hypalon, but it makes any material difficult to glue

[jeffstevens763@g]

out of interest dave how far does silicon penitrate into the hypalon reason i ask is that you have to give a good abrasion to it before gluing does it go deeper that that?

[office888]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Silicone won't harm Hypalon, but it makes any material difficult to glue

My hypothesis:
It soaks in through the topcoating (CSM) and saturates the internal cloth support of the material, then wicks along the entirety of the panel.

With heating, cooling, and surface pressure changes, it flows in and out through the pores and can potentially get behind a glued surface and destroy it.

Reasoning:
Water does the same thing already. Through an unprotected edge, the internal cloth wicks water and microbes/fungus, which can lead to a mildew bloom (spotting) in the coating.

[jeffstevens763@g]

does PVC suffer the same richard?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

out of interest dave how far does silicon penitrate into the hypalon reason i ask is that you have to give a good abrasion to it before gluing does it go deeper that that?

Dunno Jeff, very few solvents will touch it. No doubt you'd get it off eventually. I recall a case at the Nissan factory in Sunderland where they were having problems with poor paint finish. They traced it to a deodorant worn by one of the blokes in the paint shop. It contained silicone & as he moved & sweated, silicone was being dispersed in the air & contaminating the bare metal surfaces.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Dunno Jeff, very few solvents will touch it. No doubt you'd get it off eventually. I recall a case at the Nissan factory in Sunderland where they were having problems with poor paint finish. They traced it to a deodorant worn by one of the blokes in the paint shop. It contained silicone & as he moved & sweated, silicone was being dispersed in the air & contaminating the bare metal surfaces.

kinda proves how easy it is to get a contaminated repair then cheers

[Pikey Dave]

A little light reading
http://www.cemag.us/article/2004/03/...ination-part-1

[office888]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

does PVC suffer the same richard?

Plastomer family (PVC/PU) have a non-porous coating, so silicone just kinda ends up sitting on the surface, attracting dirt. You need to be careful though, because when you attack it with solvent, you can end up driving it deeper in to the material.

I'm a big fan of pre-cleaning with denatured alcohol (you call it methylated spirits) before repairs, since it will remove most grease/oil/silicone and it is very cheap.

The method of the coating dispersal for plastomers is very different from an elastomer calendering process, so wicking with PVC/PU is not as much of a problem, even with older boats.

Even if wicking were an issue and you got some mold/mildew in to the polyester support cloth, you'd never see it because of the coating. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?

It tends to be as well with PVC/PU, since the material is cheap and the labor is usually cheap, the seams tend to be reinforced with internal seam tape (thin vinyl), external seam tape (thin vinyl), and cosmetic external seam (PVC material, like the boat itself) tape...so the edges are well reinforced / sealed.

Instead, you trade that off for the risk of plasticizer migration which causes that "burnt orange" color on the topside of the material and general stickiness. The plasticizers eventually destroy the glue, all of the seam tape in the process if it's a glued construction boat. Welded boats just end up looking like hell, but they usually remain very functional in a cosmetically poor state. In the event of a puncture though, they're extremely difficult to glue to. PVC patches + polyurethane glue don't bond very well to polyester fabric, not to mention the amount of prep wipes you need to do to remove ALL of the plasticizing oils in the area. You end up needing to prep wipe, then rebuild a coating with glue, let it cure, then glue your patch to the glue-coating (called gluetexing).

I joke with people, there is no perfect solution, only the "least worst" solution for your application.

CSM/CR is extremely easy to work with for manufacturing since it is an elastomer family material, but it is hell to keep clean and retain air... It is also expensive as hell, and NOT environmentally friend since it is a thermoset material.

PVC/PU is the future, once the chemists can get the UV stability problems worked out and cheap. Even if everybody makes 100% welded tubes, nobody wants to cruise around in a porous, crispy, burnt orange RIB. The scraps from production can be recycled even. The Bombard "Air Ethic" is built with recycled PVC. The manufacturing side for PVC/PU is also a lot cleaner, thanks to no longer requiring a metric ton of grinding dust be generated for proper adhesion.

[jeffstevens763@g]

intweresting cheers both

[chipko]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I did wonder if they weren't hypalon as they feel different to the ribcrafts and my own boats
I didn't realise the manufacturer actually offered pu tubes?
If you've identified the boat please don't mention the builder as I didn't start the thread to point fingers I was just looking for opinions

Also think I recognise manufacturer. Are you sure they're not hypalon, it's a no cost option between pu and hypalon. I only ask as their pu tubes are currently welded not glued. If it's pu then yes the transom, lifeline fixings and wear patches glued but bow tube joints would be welded. Can't be sure though if they welded pu back in 2010 though.
Either way would concur glue/preparation failure at that age and extent regardless of use and abuse.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by chipko

Also think I recognise manufacturer. Are you sure they're not hypalon, it's a no cost option between pu and hypalon. I only ask as their pu tubes are currently welded not glued. If it's pu then yes the transom, lifeline fixings and wear patches glued but bow tube joints would be welded. Can't be sure though if they welded pu back in 2010 though.
Either way would concur glue/preparation failure at that age and extent regardless of use and abuse.

I thought initially they were hypalon,the material is different from the ribcrafts and my delta and sons sr4 its kind of more shiny and less like rubber .After some of the comments I thought it may be pu which I thought may explain the failure however as the thread has progressed it would appear that it is more likely a glue defect issue and there is glue on both parted surfaces which kind of confirms that theory
It looks like the problem has been there from new although has taken its time to show and no one within the club recognised the signs early on.
I'm considering an email to the manufacturer and realy wanted others opinions/ reactions to help me decide on the tone of the mail
I guess if the seams are welded then that's a good thing as the boat isn't going to deflate

Thanks to everyone else who has commented it's interesting to get other people's thoughts on the issue and in particular thanks to the tube experts who can give informed opinion

[jeffstevens763@g]

My two pence I would ring asking thier advice what the cause is and the best way forward for repair, test thier reaction on a friendly basis you might be surprised a repair at cost possibly fingers crossed

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

My two pence I would ring asking thier advice what the cause is and the best way forward for repair, test thier reaction on a friendly basis you might be surprised a repair at cost possibly fingers crossed

That's kind of where I was thinking of going with it but probably do it by email with the pictures first then follow up with a call

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by beamishken

That's kind of where I was thinking of going with it but probably do it by email with the pictures first then follow up with a call

YEP AGREE