Venturers Search and Rescue

[DM]

Originally Posted by Simon Hawkins

we would of been under direct instructions to Coastguard, and they would have to authorise us to release a tow.

In any pro outfit, the boss man up the sharp end calls the shots, not someone in a nice warm control room.

Originally Posted by Matt-V-SAR

I will pm you later with the reasons.

Why? What's so secret that you can't share it with the forum?

I find the negativity towards Venturers a bit sad. OK, they're a bunch of young volunteers where perhaps, in their eagerness to help, things go pear shaped. This happens with every organisation on occasions whether volunteer or pro.

I also find Mr. Hawkins attempts to belittle their work while making us aware of his own units prowess unnecessary. Unfortunately, Matt made the mistake of joining in a tit for tat so, for me, both outfits emerge with little credit.

The main benefit of outfits like Venturers is that, like the air/army/sea cadets, they introduce young people to a disciplined environment which shapes their outlook They will find that discipline useful when they enter the job market. My own kids were encouraged to attend similar organisations and all ended up in the services. They've never forgiven me.

Fair play to Matt and Co. for their comittment but keep the blather to a minimum

[Poly]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

The main benefit of outfits like Venturers is that, like the air/army/sea cadets, they introduce young people to a disciplined environment which shapes their outlook They will find that discipline useful when they enter the job market.

There is also a potential benefit to all the "pro" organisations around the solent if Venturers are able to deal with some of the very minor incidents which must crop up on the solent during its busiest periods (which I assume is why the only opperate weekends and during the summer). e.g. the flat batteries, run our of fuels and simple tows - where it is not an actual Mayday and so possibly avoid placing the burden on the "emergency" services.

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by Matt

It's a shame you weren't around on 12th August 06.
You couldn't have done a worse job than the hamble boat whose coxswain's boat handling was utterly shit.

Yeh, he did make a pigs ear of that one, more cock than coxswain!

[Matt-V-SAR]

There is also a potential benefit to all the "pro" organisations around the solent if Venturers are able to deal with some of the very minor incidents which must crop up on the solent during its busiest periods (which I assume is why the only opperate weekends and during the summer). e.g. the flat batteries, run our of fuels and simple tows - where it is not an actual Mayday and so possibly avoid placing the burden on the "emergency" services.

Polwart these are all good examples of the work we do, simple incidents, straightforeward tows, picking the occasional windsurfers out of danger, but we do get the occasional incident were things are not straightforward. some examples of these this year include pulling two children to safety when thier inflatable dinghy got caught it some choppy seas near Lepe Spit, plucking a dinghy sailer from rought weather at Gurnard bay, as this ws happening our second boat pulled a windsurfer from the sea.

A gentlemen whos engine blew up internally (something to do with a piston!) that caused a lot of smoke was happy to see our boat as he had 3 young children onboard, we were not called to this incident, it happened just in front of us! he was towed to Fawley.

there have been quite a few more that we have not "raced over to" but that just happen around us, we found a 50 foot motor boat on our mooring, when pointed out it was a 24hour rescue boat mooring and requested nicley to move he responded "i am very sorry, and would like to move, but the tide has gone out since i moored here, and i have run aground", he was towed clear.



Yet as you suggest we have towed broken down boats, towed vessels clear of Sandbanks, and even removed the occasional navigational hazard, (one being a 30+ foot tree trunk! just off Newtown)

So yes wecan pick up the "Lighter" work thus releasing the emergency services, one good example was our boat returning from the Hamble scouts parade on the evening of June 2nd, we came across a broken down fishing boat, he was in need of a tow (to the top of the Hamble, he was provided with this and took quite a while, boat was back on her mooring and crew ashore at 0130 on June 3rd, this was a simple tow but it could of been a declared facility that would of been tied up with this incident unitll the early hours.

Why? What's so secret that you can't share it with the forum?

As said in my PM to you David,

These reasons are somewhat Private to the Venturers, but i will consider posting them in the near future.

Matt

[tim griffin]

Not sure why some need to have ago at a youth organisation that provides training on the sea for youngsters and the funding is provided by public donations their website is very informative if anyone would take time to read it.

Matt has already stated they are not SAR recognised but they will assist anyone in trouble .

Matt is a RYA Powerboat Level 2 Instructor(passed at age 16) it was not his decision to leave the RYA, I would be happy to have him working for me .

Give the guy a break he is ok in my book drives that beast of a rib extremely well still owes me ago .

He is also a very dedicated and concientious young man who wishes to work in the Coastguard or RNLI when he is old enough so can we stop the animosity .
Regards Tim

[Matt-V-SAR]

I would be happy to have him working for me

i would be more than happy to work for you!!!

(beats the hell out of a freight forwarder any day!!)

drives that beast of a rib extremely well still owes me ago

Thankyou Tim for the kind comments, it means alot to me, as for driving "the beast of a RIB" you are more than welcome anytime, just give me a ring on a weekend when we are afloat.

Cant wait for the O2 and defib courses in March!

Thanks again.

Matt

[JIY]

I've been watching this thread develop with interest. Up here in the Frozen North the RNLI are the only waterborne rescue organisation, there are no independents, but of course there is also significantly less leisure marine traffic!

I've had a good look through the Venturer's website, they certainly seem passionate about their organisation and are clearly trying hard to provide a professional service on the water, but perhaps more importantly they offer an avenue for youngsters to better themselves. I found their leader "Tiffy"'s interview quite enlightening, I would commend you all to have a look at it.

Clearly I have no knowledge of how the Venturers actually perform on the water, but if they don't blunder on occasions, they are the first mariners I've come across that are perfect! The old adage "you can't put an old head on young shoulders" also probably applies here, but we all have to start somewhere and it is important to remember that we all make mistakes, no matter how old or experienced we are.

Whatever you think of the Venturers as an organisation, I'm sure you would all agree that Matt's very mature and measured handling of this discussion does him great credit, I suspect that he has a great career ahead of him.

Matt, if you ever get bored of the sea, we could use guys like you in ATC!

[simmons0]

I've also been reading with interest and I feel its time I made some input. I know Matt, I know how good his boathandling is and how responsible he can be. Honestly if we broke down in the Solent during the peak season Ventures would be my first call on the radio.

Say what you will about Ventures of years ago, the personal have changed entirely and at least the few of them i've met have been great guys/girls.
If its a serious incident i'd go straight to the CG or the RNLI but a simple breakdown there is nothing better than a service putting themselves out there just to help such simple things.

Harry.

[havener]

I think there's two issues here.

Firstly, the UK has a clear, formal SAR structure, that depends upon "declared" assets to carry out rescue on behalf of MCA. These assets do, of course, work to their own protocols but these will have been agreed with the MCA. Therefore HMCG MRCC's will, when they task such assets, have detailed knowledge of the capabilities, and more importantly limitations, of these assets. Having been a founder member of decalred facilities, and served on both RNLI and independant services, I can vouch for the fact that such declared status is not easily won or retained.

There are then "other" assets - Venturers, the public, merchant shipping, etc. The fact that HMCG will normally place more weight on the capabilities of "secondary" assets such as merchant ships or pilot boats is simple - they know we are out there all the time. I would think that the same would apply to RYA school boats.

Venturers are not declared. That means that HMCG do not know their training standards, or their reliability. That is not to say no training or reliability exists, simply that they have not gone through an accreditation process.

Venturers, if they stop one teenager from taking to drink and drugs by providing a new avenue in life, have done a worthwhile job. I am sure they are well trained and mostly competent. To say they should not be around because they do not have the necessary paperwork is daft - I've encountered enough ships's crew as a pilot to know that bits of paper do not equal ability.

The SAR world is a close knit one, and the terms "rescue" and "lifeboat" can be used by anyone, but truly earned by few. My advice to Venturers would be simple - continue what you do, concentrate on giving purpose to young people, and drop the "SAR" tag. We all should assist each other whilst at sea - that is what you are doing. You are not SAR (but very worthwhile none the less).

And to others - stop slagging Matt, Venturers, or any other crew off. We are none of us perfect. I work with big ships for a living, but that doesn't mean I could hop on a yacht and sail it instantly.

The sea, and especially ribnet, is a community. Respect we are all aiming for the same thing - no loss of life at sea.

Lecture over, now play nicely

Simon

[Simon Hawkins]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

I also find Mr. Hawkins attempts to belittle their work while making us aware of his own units prowess unnecessary. Unfortunately, Matt made the mistake of joining in a tit for tat so, for me, both outfits emerge with little credit.

I am not being negative about them as said that I think it is a good thing for youngsters to be involved in. I personally have time for them, and that is why on an earlier post I said that I would do training with them. I am not putting CILB on a pedastool and would be the first to say that we have had our problems and embarrassments, but these are slowly being ironed out.

As I said I have personally not come across any problems with them but I have heard various reports.

Matt my offer is still open for you to do some training with us next year.

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Simon Hawkins

I am not being negative about them as said that I think it is a good thing for youngsters to be involved in. I personally have time for them, and that is why on an earlier post I said that I would do training with them. I am not putting CILB on a pedastool and would be the first to say that we have had our problems and embarrassments, but these are slowly being ironed out.

As I said I have personally not come across any problems with them but I have heard various reports.

Simon,

i will be taking you up on it when i have some suitable dates.

[NautiAndNice]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/display.v...scue_delay.php

[Jon Brooks]

IMHO I think its a fantasic idea that these youngsters are given the chance to get into something like this.

Whilst it is great that they get out and do this on there own IMHO they would be in a stronger position if there were a "growed up" out with them.
Not because they are not up to the job but to help with the stigma they get for just being "kids at play"
They could also then be "declared" thus then coordinated.

If this already happens then I stand corrected.

I have been involved with the VAS (Voluntary Aid Societies) for many many years, most of that time I have worked with youth sides.
I found it very rewarding and got a great deal from it.
I found over the years that the children, in many cases, are just as good at the job in hand as those over 18.
I ran a huge number of major events over the years with young adults in the Command and Control Unit, operating and coordinating many people but always with a "growed up" on hand for help and advice if neded.

Also have met Philip PS a number of times and whilst he may do great work with the children his attitude with us "growed ups" needs a bit of work and he does not rule the world......clearly I do

All IMHO of course!

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Jon Brooks

IMHO I think its a fantasic idea that these youngsters are given the chance to get into something like this.

Whilst it is great that they get out and do this on there own IMHO they would be in a stronger position if there were a "growed up" out with them.
Not because they are not up to the job but to help with the stigma they get for just being "kids at play"
They could also then be "declared" thus then coordinated.

If this already happens then I stand corrected.

I have been involved with the VAS (Voluntary Aid Societies) for many many years, most of that time I have worked with youth sides.
I found it very rewarding and got a great deal from it.
I found over the years that the children, in many cases, are just as good at the job in hand as those over 18.
I ran a huge number of major events over the years with young adults in the Command and Control Unit, operating and coordinating many people but always with a "growed up" on hand for help and advice if neded.

Also have met Philip PS a number of times and whilst he may do great work with the children his attitude with us "growed ups" needs a bit of work and he does not rule the world......clearly I do

All IMHO of course!

Hi John,

Just want to try and explain a few things, so hope this helps "clear things up a bit",


To answer - grown ups on the boat, well yes and no, they can be onboard, but not in charge, i.e crew of four,

i am the coxswain, 16yrs old, in charge and make the decisions.
my crew are
1 15yr old creman
1 18 yr old medic
1 16 yr old second cox

Several of the Coxswains that i "manage and co-ordinate" are older than me, 2 of them are 21 years old, but they listen to me and respect my decisions,

My point is we very often do have older crew onboard, many over 17 at least, but they are not in charge of the situation

Does this make sense??

Matt

[Jon Brooks]

Hi Matt,

Yes it does but my point is that if you made it routine you "could" then be delcared and therefore used more. You stated that you could not be as no adults on board.
Whilst that adult "may" not be in charge they are there to ensure that someone is of legal age to take charge.
I am not saying that it is right but it is the way it has to be on law and then would surly make you guys a better resource.

I am a the duty cox for a declared/additional boat.
We are mainly a patrol vessel but can and are used in a SAR role.
We get tasks to jobs by our local coast guard and worl along side our local RNLI stations.

We do not and would never seek to upstage or replace them but it makes sense for us to be tasked to job as we can have a much quicker response as we are already on the water.
I have, on a number of job, after looking at what we have been asked to do, asked for the RNLI boat to be lauched.
I would much rather stand it down than have to wait longer for back up.
The same is true of the SAR helicopters.

As the wise old sage DM said it is the guy on the ground who should call the shots not thoses in the control room as they do not always have all the facts to hand.

Our boat and PWC have channel 0 programmed in and we log on and off with the coast guard at the begining and end of each shift.

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Jon Brooks

Hi Matt,

Yes it does but my point is that if you made it routine you "could" then be delcared and therefore used more. You stated that you could not be as no adults on board.
Whilst that adult "may" not be in charge they are there to ensure that someone is of legal age to take charge.
I am not saying that it is right but it is the way it has to be on law and then would surly make you guys a better resource.

I am a the duty cox for a declared/additional boat.
We are mainly a patrol vessel but can and are used in a SAR role.
We get tasks to jobs by our local coast guard and worl along side our local RNLI stations.

We do not and would never seek to upstage or replace them but it makes sense for us to be tasked to job as we can have a much quicker response as we are already on the water.
I have, on a number of job, after looking at what we have been asked to do, asked for the RNLI boat to be lauched.
I would much rather stand it down than have to wait longer for back up.
The same is true of the SAR helicopters.

As the wise old sage DM said it is the guy on the ground who should call the shots not thoses in the control room as they do not always have all the facts to hand.

Our boat and PWC have channel 0 programmed in and we log on and off with the coast guard at the begining and end of each shift.

John,

Whislt being declared would have its advatages it was my understanding the whole crew needed to be a declared?

If we were declared we would also be aloocated a patrol zone, and have to keep to it, be on call 24/7 and able to respond (i beleive)

Decisions are always made by the coxswain (on scene) and not by our control room as you said , whoever is on scene has the facts.

Regards

Matt

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by Matt-V-SAR

John,

Whislt being declared would have its advatages it was my understanding the whole crew needed to be a declared?

If we were declared we would also be aloocated a patrol zone, and have to keep to it, be on call 24/7 and able to respond (i beleive)

Decisions are always made by the coxswain (on scene) and not by our control room as you said , whoever is on scene has the facts.

Regards

Matt

Well glad to say all pretty much wrong.
It would seem someone there need to sit and have a chat with the coast guard to see what you can do and need to do.
IMHO you seem to be acting on a fair bit of hear say and not fact.

We are only available for SAR tasking when we are launched on patrol.
We do not responded like the RNLI.
We are not on call 24/7.
We are not a lifeboat like CILB but our crews are very highly trained.

The organisation is delcared not you as Matt of VSAR.

You "declare" to HMGC what you can and can't do, what your crews can do.
You would need an adult on board otherwise you could not be delcared and you may in some case let them take charge, by law.

Whilst this may go against what the Ventures are all about IMHO if you want to get involved with this kind of work, can see from you posts you do, then you may have to bite the bullet in some areas.

I would agree with Havener if you can not become delared that maybe you should consider dropping the SAR as on the water you are not a SAR resource and may give the wrong impression.
You on land role is another case.

Having said that I would stand up and say that the work that you are doing with the youngsters is great but maybe you need to have look inside at what you are trying to portray.

IMHO a lot of the flack you are and maybe getting is because you, (you as in Ventures not you as in Matt) are giving the impression that you are some alternative lifeboat when in all honesty you are not.

Cheers

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Jon Brooks

Well glad to say all pretty much wrong.
It would seem someone there need to sit and have a chat with the coast guard to see what you can do and need to do.
IMHO you seem to be acting on a fair bit of hear say and not fact.

We are only available for SAR tasking when we are launched on patrol.
We do not responded like the RNLI.
We are not on call 24/7.
We are not a lifeboat like CILB but our crews are very highly trained.

The organisation is delcared not you as Matt of VSAR.

You "declare" to HMGC what you can and can't do, what your crews can do.
You would need an adult on board otherwise you could not be delcared and you may in some case let them take charge, by law.

Whilst this may go against what the Ventures are all about IMHO if you want to get involved with this kind of work, can see from you posts you do, then you may have to bite the bullet in some areas.

I would agree with Havener if you can not become delared that maybe you should consider dropping the SAR as on the water you are not a SAR resource and may give the wrong impression.
You on land role is another case.

Having said that I would stand up and say that the work that you are doing with the youngsters is great but maybe you need to have look inside at what you are trying to portray.

IMHO a lot of the flack you are and maybe getting is because you, (you as in Ventures not you as in Matt) are giving the impression that you are some alternative lifeboat when in all honesty you are not.

Cheers

Not sure how you mean alternative lifeboat??,

i respect your opinions however it isnt as simple as drop the SAR name, we are an "additional facility" to the coastguard, if we can assit and the Coastguard see us capable of doing so (they have full information of quality of equipment and training) then they will use us as that "additional facility", we can therefor assist in searches etc under this "additional facility" status.

As you rightly point out, us on land is an completely different as we are a recognised search and rescue assist to the police.

Venturers have held the name 'The league of Venturers Search and Rescue' since being formed in 1961, it is proberly not something that would be easy to change with the snap of the fingures

I understand why people believe we should not act as SAR as we are not declared.

as i said before, i respect and appreciate your opinions.

Matt

[Chris]

Matt you have a great future in politics if nothing else.

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Chris

Matt you have a great future in politics if nothing else.

is that a good thing or a bad thing?? lol

think i may stick to what my parents tell me, "your young and insignificant..shutup"..