Venturers Search and Rescue

[Jon Brooks]

oh ok maybe I have the wrong end of the stick here, easily done I think its my age

The impression given, not just by you, was that you were not controlled by HMGC and were out on "patrol" and if you came across something you got stuck in.

So I take it you log on with HMGC when you are on the water via ch0 or ch 16 then are tasked to jobs in the same way that the RNLI or CILB would be?

Please do not think I was trying to have a pop or anything, I guess it was not clear on how you are tasked and under who's control you operate.

And am sure you could do a fine job at no 10, lets face it, it could not be much worse!

Cheers

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Jon Brooks

oh ok maybe I have the wrong end of the stick here, easily done I think its my age

The impression given, not just by you, was that you were not controlled by HMGC and were out on "patrol" and if you came across something you got stuck in.

So I take it you log on with HMGC when you are on the water via ch0 or ch 16 then are tasked to jobs in the same way that the RNLI or CILB would be?

Please do not think I was trying to have a pop or anything, I guess it was not clear on how you are tasked and under who's control you operate.

And am sure you could do a fine job at no 10, lets face it, it could not be much worse!

Cheers

ummm yes and no,

We inform the coastguard everyday we are on, what boats are available and crews, we then spend the day with the boats on patrol, if an incident comes through on the radio we offer our assistance to the coastguard, stating our position and if we are "SAR Capable", they then can accept or decline our offer, if they accept we procced to the incident under thier co-ordination and undertake the task.

We inform them every step of the way what is happeing and what action we are taking.

When a mayday is heard out nearest boat is automaticaly diverted to the scene by OUR control room , the control room will then inform the coastguard that we have a boat on route should it be requested, they will normally be happy with this and ask us to do what we can to stabalise the situation untill a declared facility arrives, if declared facitlitis are already on scene, they will thank us and confirm we can stand down, boat will resume patrol.

If we come across an incident on patrol, we contact the coastguard to tell them what the situation is and what action we are taking, 90% of the time they let us get on with it, i.e tow a yacht of a sandbank, take a broken down cruiser in tow etc.

If they see fit, they will again ask us to stabalise the situation untill a declared unit arrives.

In the way of searches, we volunteer as an additional facility as the more oats you have to search, the better.

The coastguard will give us an area to search, and co-ordinate us as they would a normall unit, they will ask us to "check things out" etc.

We work well with the coatsguard, they are fully aware when we are on patrol and if we have a SAR capable crew on board, they cannot request our assistance, but we can offer under SOLAS 5, and they can accept,

sorry for the confusion, hope this clears it up??

any questions feel free to ask..

[Tiffy]

Reason the Venturers left RYA and Joined the IYT (USA ) who have MCA
accreditation . We do not feel the RYA Level 2 to be taken in a 2 day
set course was sufficient for all the information and skills to be absorbed
especially when dealing with teenagers with no previous sea going experience.We had a pre-training of 1 year for level 1 and 2 years for level 2 , where we ran right through the RYA level 2 time and time again and in different
weather conditions. With a star chart when we felt the cadet had mastered
that part. That when confidence they had the sea hours and experience
we then set them the 2 day RYA Level .2 To which we also added our
own written exam. On our last inspection we were told this pre-training
was not allowed. We had always been concerned the snobby RYA regarded
power boating as 2nd class . Hence reluctance to change title to RYA
Power and Yachting Association. Perhaps confirmed a few years ago when
they appointed As Chief Dinghy and Power Boat Coach , as they are
2 opposite disciplines and he seem to come from a background of working with young people with severely disadvantaged backgrounds , supporting
outdoor holiday organisations . His resume showed no information about
power boating qualifications. He also told us that if we were out on
RYA training we must not get involved in any Rescue . " Let them drown
we are RYA " I was also not impressed with his alteration of the RESCUE
Coxswain Level 3 , and Fleet Rescue Coxswain . To combined Safety
Boat Coxswain , as the latter was more to do with sailing.
That you could pass the course on a small easy to drive RIB , and obtain
a International Certificate of Competence which allowed you to drive
much larger and more powerful motor cruisers. When I took my level 2
in 1973 . It was on a Twin Diesel Grand Banks. 40 hrs accompanied and
15 hours in command , and endorsed " all weather conditions "
The IYT are more flexible , and have a small power and ribmaster , and
longer and more professional course for larger cruisers. That if you go to
the IYT WWW you will find a number of Countries no longer accept
RYA Qualifications
Commodore Philip Pearce-Smith
www.venturers search and rescue

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Tiffy

" Let them drown we are RYA "

mi fealins igsakly

oww mucch didd yew paiy forr yorr MEB

[Poly]

I would be intrigued to hear the RYA version of this story. I can't imagine they have ever insisted the a school should not respond to a mayday call (which is what you imply). I also cannot believe that they don't allow RYA schools to offer additional training in addition to the RYA programme.

Might I ask if a twin diesel grand banks handles in the same way as a small outboard (or jet in your case) powered rib? I would have thought the priority for you was to ensure your crews could handle your boats safely and responsibly - what someone does with a qualification outside your organisation is a completely differnet issue.

[Tiffy]

Originally Posted by Simon Hawkins

I have reservations on Matts post. The argument for this is because we were tasked to a casualty last year reported by Venturers. The position was just off the entrance to beaulie. When we arrived, venturers were no where to be seen, tried comms with them on Channel 16, but no reply. We headed West along Gull Island and found them with the casualty. I
structed by coastguard to take over.

In reply to Simon Hawkins
knock at the Venturers . The causality initially gave a incorrect position ,
and was found by a search by the Venturers. I assume Cowes Rescue
if working with the Coast were on Channel zero which we do not have.
We were working with the Coastguard on Channel 67 , and would not
have heard your channel 16 call to us. It was a simple tow which our
9.5 meter Ocean Dynamic could have coped with . Rather a waste of
fuel and effort sending you all the way from Cowes ; but as our Coxswain
said " if the dog want,s the bone let them have it.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Tiffy

We do not feel the RYA Level 2 to be taken in a 2 day set course was sufficient for all the information and skills to be absorbed
especially when dealing with teenagers with no previous sea going experience.We had a pre-training of 1 year for level 1 and 2 years for level 2 , where we ran right through the RYA level 2 time and time again and in different weather conditions.

The RNLI and many other well respected organisations use the Level 2 with additional training to suit their individual needs- what extra is in the IYT course that makes it better for you?

Originally Posted by Tiffy

With a star chart when we felt the cadet had mastered
that part.

Are you honestly teaching a Solent based RIB crew astro nav so that they can patrol the Western Solent????

Originally Posted by Tiffy

the snobby RYA regarded
power boating as 2nd class . Hence reluctance to change title to RYA
Power and Yachting Association.

Ever heard of a motor yacht?

Should we all take an organisations name so literally??? - search and rescue man

Originally Posted by Tiffy

Perhaps confirmed a few years ago when
they appointed As Chief Dinghy and Power Boat Coach

Has been 8 yrs and they have since twice appointed a powerboat national coach.

Originally Posted by Tiffy

" Let them drown we are RYA "

Are you exagerating, quoting out of context or lying? I suspect that the statment was more along the lines of "you have to seperate your RYA trainig time from patrol time".

Originally Posted by Tiffy

I was also not impressed with his alteration of the RESCUE
Coxswain Level 3 , and Fleet Rescue Coxswain . To combined Safety
Boat Coxswain , as the latter was more to do with sailing.

The courses covers towing and rescuing powerboats, windsurfers, dinghies, keelboats and kayak/canoes. The RYA leave other scenarios to those who are expert in those fields.

Originally Posted by Tiffy

That you could pass the course on a small easy to drive RIB , and obtain
a International Certificate of Competence which allowed you to drive
much larger and more powerful motor cruisers. .

You are very out of date on this issue and what has ICC got to do with what your team do anyway?

Originally Posted by Tiffy

When I took my level 2
in 1973 . It was on a Twin Diesel Grand Banks. 40 hrs accompanied and
15 hours in command , and endorsed " all weather conditions " .

Clearly we should all bow down to your godliness here as I fail to see the relevance of this boat to what is being discussed here.

Originally Posted by Tiffy

The IYT are more flexible , .

Yes I agree with you. Pay your fee and they will let you do what you want.

Originally Posted by Tiffy

and have a small power and ribmaster , and
longer and more professional course for larger cruisers. .

Same as RYA who they copied in the first place

Originally Posted by Tiffy

That if you go to
the IYT WWW you will find a number of Countries no longer accept
RYA Qualifications

and which country are you based in that does not recognise RYA certs?


Young Matt held himself very well on this forum and is a credit to your organisation, you however have got your facts in some cases out of date and in some cases plain wrong.

[Tiffy]

Originally Posted by Simon Hawkins

Matt

Thankyou for that. This inceident certainly did not happen in the last 3 years since I have been on the boat. I find it hard to believe we would of put the boat up leap beach, breaking both legs. Being a rescue service you will appreciate that life will always be put before vessel. I cannot speak for this event, but if hypothermia had set in then the casualties would of been taken back to Cowes, then the vessel recovered later, or by requesting Solent Coastguard to task Calshot Lifeboat. Legs over the side of boat. You have seen our boat and cannot really understand why this would be.

In respect of us not releasing the tow to you, this would be because we would of been under direct instructions to Coastguard, and they would have to authorise us to release a tow.

I note what you say about one crew member entering the water to swim the baot out. This is absurd, have you ever tried doing this with a 9m boat weighing 3 tonnes.

I think that perhaps before you start casting accusations that you have the full story.

I was coxswain on the Venturers Rescue Rib at the time ,and having just
returned from the Med , had not seen your post. I can confirm Matt
version which was 3rd hand is only part accurate. The behavior of your
crew was not in the best interests of the causality . You reported one
was suffering from " after drowning and the other from Hypothermia.
That towing both the dinghy and the 2 persons from South Bramble to
Lepe Beach , with 2 Ambulances waiting . Would have taken a considerable
time , thus I was astounded when you refused my offer to take either
the causalities or the dinghy. Although reported as suffering from exposure
no proper first aid was being carried out , and one was sitting on your
tubes with his feet in the dinghy ,and being splashed by the sea , as
your side tow was on the windward side. I offered our thermal exposure
suite , and you said you had a para medic on board. That it was no longer
good practice to wrap a exposure case up.

To come back to your claim you did not pass over the dinghy , because
we were not working with the Coastguard. It was our initial report to
the Coastguard from the father of the boy , that they authorized us to
start a search. That it was only after I contacted the Coastguard of
my concerns over the time it would take for you to reach Lepe Beach
that you had a change of mind. You initially made a un seamanlike suggestion
we should attach our side tow while you still had your attached. This
I declined.

When I got back to Lepe Beach , I found one of your crew in the
water trying to tow your Rib to deeper water . This could not have been
so long ago as it was the twin outboard , prior to your present Rib ,and
not a Avon as Matt thought. Your man in the water initially refused
my offer to tow it to deeper water , even though he was making no
progress against the tide. Although he eventually accept. I Offered to
to you back to Cowes ; which you refused , and called out Calshot
Lifeboat. So if you still state this never happened , check their records.
We have this in our log , and can supply date , time and signals.You must
also have bills for the repairs to the steering or bottom engines , due to
damage done when approaching Lepe Beach.

Your other statement that you would have taken a exposure case to
Cowes , does not stand up to the requests for Ambulance to Lepe , and
your arrival there.

I am sorry to put the true fact in writing and in the public domain , but
you did start it by knocking the Venturers , and open it up further by
asking for any incidents where you had gone wrong. So I will not mention
the time you drove across Gurnard Ledge , although repairs to your bottom
end must have been expensive. The time you used excessive initial
power on a wooden sail boat , and pulled the front sampson post out of
the deck, cannot quite remember if we took this one over.

The Venturers may have a number of teenagers ; but most have Level 2 ,
4 over 16 have Rescue Boat Coxswain Certificate. 3 including one 16 year
old are IYT Power/Ribmaster Instructors . We have citations from the
RNLI , RYA , Royal Humane Society Awards , We have been operational
since 1961 . We do suffer from jealousy , and often see posting such
as you rammed my boat while I was at anchor , but when asked for
date time ,repair bills or more information there is no reply , and when
investigated by our local MP Dr. Julian Lewis they disolved into smoke and
mirrors. Any doubts read some of the hundreds of letters on our URL ,
or published in Independent Life Boats.
So all you out there anxious to have a go at these teenagers who
instead of mugging old ladies , stealing cars , doing drugs or vandalising
property. Have shown given the training , opportunity and trust they
can provide a valuable " Additional Facility in the Solent " Which the
Coast Guard must trust or they would not accept our offers of assistance
Commodore Philip Pearce-Smith MBE VSC

[Poly]

tiffy - I suggest you might want to take some advice from Doug @ Stormforce on good management of potentially adverse publicity, or indeed even from Matt. Your post above comes across as a defensive rant.

how many of your teenagers have criminal records? there is this repeated claim that you are preventing young people from participating in crime - but I suspect that many of the people involved may not actually be the sort of teenager which uses mindless vandalism and theft to fill their spare time.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by tiffy

With a star chart when we felt the cadet had mastered
that part.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Are you honestly teaching a Solent based RIB crew astro nav so that they can patrol the Western Solent????

Doug - i think it is some sort of SuperNanny sticker chart (or perhaps its like McDonalds staff with a badge).

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Tiffy

I will not mention the time you drove across Gurnard Ledge

gud mann. itt wud av imbarast CLIB ifn yew ad menshund girnard lejj.

enywaiys az a reer admirul i wud lyke too noe hoo maid yew a commador

woz it de kween

[chris123]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Doug - i think it is some sort of SuperNanny sticker chart (or perhaps its like McDonalds staff with a badge).

I think the usual phrase is 'competence based training' , which is (IMO) a useful training and assessment tool. Somewhere between an intensive, formal course (with limited time and only one specific set of conditions) and a log book with lots of dates and lots of hours but very little else. Stickers and badges are (I'm sure) optional .

Cheers

Chris

[Nos4r2]

Actually, everything I've seen that he's posted either comes across as defensive or as though he feels like the underdog.It's not doing the Venturers image much good in my opinion.

Matt has definitely got the edge in communication skills...

[havener]

Which the
Coast Guard must trust or they would not accept our offers of assistance

HMCG will normally allow any nearby vessel to assist WHILST THEY TASK A DECLARED FACILITY.

If it is a straightforward tow job, and the distressed vessel is also willing to accept your assistance only, of course a declared asset would not be tasked. This is the same with a friend towing a friend in, two fishing boats, etc. Accepting your offer on scene DOES NOT imply they believe you to be the same standard as declared assets, merely acknowledges the fact you are nearest.

I too don't always agree with the RYA, but saying they would not allow you to assist a distress vessel whilst training is crap, as is your comment about them not allowing you to add training. Of course, you cannot alter the RYA syllabus, but there is nothing to stop you adding extras seperately. We have done this for many years both training declared rescue teams and merchant marine.

I'm always worried when people try to operate their own rules outside the mainstream - the RYA are not good enough for you, you will not go through the process of declaring your assets within the UK SAR framework, and from what I can see your "land" teams are not part of either the Mountain Rescue Council or the Association of Lowland Search and Rescue, the governing bodies for that activity.

I note your land teams have also in the past participated in such things a putting out heath fires - do you have an MOU with the Fire Service? Do you fully train and insure your youths? Of course not, no insurer in their right mind would entertain children (for that is what they are) tackling fires.

I am sure Venturers have done much good in showing young people a way forward, and should continue to do so, but please stop pretending you are anything other than a cadet association that happens to be at sea sometimes when things happen to other people.

And for heavens sake, put a brake on the sickening sight of you openly attacking proper, declared rescue services in a public forum.

Stick to doing one thing well - either be a youth organisation or a lifeboat service. You can't do both.

[Matt-V-SAR]

Fire fighting and training.

we train with the MOD Fire service on a reasnably regulard basis.

from what I can see your "land" teams are not part of either the Mountain Rescue Council or the Association of Lowland Search and Rescue

Which montains in New Forest?? and Lowland Search and Rescue have only one unit per area, they already have a unit HANTSAR for the New Forest.

We have a MOU with the police, indeed today we winched three cars out of a Ford before being asked by the Police to assit with a search for 4 missing persons in the New Forest, they were found shortley before our arrival and thanks to our first aid training a young lady was identified as needing hospital treatment and appropriate measures to warm the casualties and call the ambulance was made, she was taken to hospital for further checkups. Police happy with our services.

hope this answers a couple of questions.

Regards

Matt

[havener]

Sounds like you're moving in the right direction with MOUs, etc although I am surprised the Police are tasking under 18s to any incident. Not sure how this leaves you regarding insurance, I was fairly heavily involved in negotiating the UK SAR insurance cover and recollect we had to exlude <18 from operational activity.

I know Mountain Rescue for Hampshire sounds daft, but their remit spreads wider than purely hills! Not sure if why there is already a HANTSAR, you don't join that rather than duplicating resources...

Now all you need to do is sort out an MOU with HMCG and the SSRO and you'll be almost there...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by havener

although I am surprised the Police are tasking under 18s to any incident.

Probably because they have quickly deployable manpower and there own transport so they could quickly cover quite a large area of the heath. I suspect that the standard of training that the young volunteers receive means they are much more proficient with a map than ordinary police officers.

Given the conditions on the south coast yesterday probably a good call.

Pete

[Matt-V-SAR]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Probably because they have quickly deployable manpower and there own transport so they could quickly cover quite a large area of the heath. I suspect that the standard of training that the young volunteers receive means they are much more proficient with a map than ordinary police officers.

Given the conditions on the south coast yesterday probably a good call.

Pete

This is spot on, we can deploy normally within 30 mins with four 4x4 vehicles, Yesterday we were on scene within 10, but we were reasonably close by lol.

We are fully trained for searches, vehicle recoverys etc

Regards

Matt

[Simon Hawkins]

Tiffy

Interesting post you have made. Firstly the RYA. You knock the sylabus, but do you realise that the RNLI use the same sylabus with their own bolt on pieces. This is adopted worldwide.

Secondly your claim On Cowes Inshore Lifeboat. As I said all of this was before my days and therefore cannot comment. Our previous boat was a 7.5 meter tornado with twin outboards on so you must be reffering to that.

Our boat operates 2 fixed VHF radios, together with 2 handhelds. These radios will be monitoring, CH, 0, 16, 67 together with a racing channel for any particular day. I was coxsain of the boat that day and were instructed to contact you buy coastguard, so surely they would of known what channel you were on!

We have good relationships with all of the declared facilities within the solent area and train with them on an regular basis. I have had a discussions with the coxsains of our boat about doing some training with you but unfortunatly they have all said no, for reasons I cannot release on this forum. If you would like to know then please contact me direct so that I may discuss with you.

[Tiffy]

Originally Posted by Polwart

tiffy - I suggest you might want to take some advice from Doug @ Stormforce on good management of potentially adverse publicity, or indeed even from Matt. Your post above comes across as a defensive rant.

how many of your teenagers have criminal records? there is this repeated claim that you are preventing young people from participating in crime - but I suspect that many of the people involved may not actually be the sort of teenager which uses mindless vandalism and theft to fill their spare time.

Many of our teenagers come from local housing Estates , and regardless
of past history have proved honest and reliable as regards involvement
with the Venturers. One boy asked why he joined the Venturers stated
" It keeps me out of trouble and when I am down at the Venturers I
AM SOMEBODY . May I need to say more ? So why do so many other
Adult Rescues services try belittle them ,or spread untrue malicious rumors
which dissolve in Mirrors and Smoke. Still waiting for chapter verse
dates and location , proof of any repairs on the allegation we rammed
his motor cruiser while it was at anchor.