Vhf hand held vs fixed. - Page 2

mdearman · 22 August 2016, 22:23

Are there any public statistics on rib based incidents? I guess the RNLI / MAIB must have an idea. Heart Attacks I would imagine. Market for a VHF/defibrillator combo?

HUMBER P4VWL · 22 August 2016, 22:28

If you flip in rough cold weather (rather than driving like a twat in the bay in August), the odds are a) you won't be able to get to the boat in your wet weather gear and the cold and b) you wouldn't want to go under it even if you could! There'll be crap everywhere and lifelines to catch and trap you, aside from the fact you'll have 1/2 to 1.5 ton of weight bouncing around in the waves to knock you out!

A HH vhf will likely have smashed off you unless tethered. But worth having if you can.

A PLB tethered to you is ideal or at least a phone in a waterproof bag is a good idea if inshore.

Reading the Round Ireland thread of the SR Ribnet member who ejected crossing the Irish Sea is a great read and VERY enlightening! (poly or Willk will find it).

http://www.rib.net/forum/f8/round-ir...3-a-51639.html

Post #356

idsebby · 22 August 2016, 22:46

What about a ruggedized box bolted on that hangs off the back of the transom.
No need to swim under just bolted right there's

jonp · 22 August 2016, 22:59

Our Epirbs have to be within reach of the stealing console. Plb's aren't considered part of safety equipment on boats over here, only Epirbs which have to be on any boat venturing more than 2 nm offshore by law.

Plb's are used on land for mountain climbing and wilderness trails where they can be placed on the ground next to an injured person etc. Where Epirbs float in an upright position and have much longer battery's. If you fall unconscious in the water a plb is useless.

If you end up in the water the last thing you want to be doing is trying to keep a plb the right way up when you are trying to keep the rest of the crew close together for warmth and survival.

Jon

MustRib · 23 August 2016, 00:54

I think the OP has and a lot of valuable replies to draw from.
IMO - I would be going to sea with a fixed VHF,
and a handheld vhf PLUS a PLB both firmly attached to me.
I would also carry another way of raising a fuss, maybe mini flares,
or a mobile phone in a waterproof pouch,
something small that gives you a little more added "shout".
If you come out of the boat or the boat flips at some speed,
stuff thats in the boat and not attached to you is going to be used first,
so I would say - make sure whatever that is - will get you rescued in the
location your boating in.
Yep - the good safety stuff is expensive, but floating in the sea
a few miles offshore without the right kit and you will be wishing you
had spent the money. Top marks for asking the questions, and trying
to prepare yourself for the unforeseen....many don't.
Today I was in Burtonport. They are a hardy bunch there for sure - just
ask Willk - and something tells me that the owner of this SIB most probably
had neither fixed or handheld vhf for his time in the garden chair,
but I do see that its firmly tied in with bailing twine !!

jonp · 23 August 2016, 03:03

This is the basic safety kit recreational boaters need to have by law here, anyone who can't afford safety gear should stick to walking beaches

Safety equipment requirements - Safety equipment - Safety & rules (Boating Handbook) - Maritime - Roads and Maritime Services

MustRib · 23 August 2016, 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustRib

If you come out of the boat or the boat flips at some speed,
stuff thats in the boat and not attached to you is going to be used first,
so I would say - make sure whatever that is - will get you rescued in the
location your boating in.

Whoops... perils of posting late at night.
What I meant to say was that if you come out of the boat or flip it,
the stuff that is attached to your person will be used first...etc etc

Poly · 23 August 2016, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonp

This is the basic safety kit recreational boaters need to have by law here, anyone who can't afford safety gear should stick to walking beaches

Safety equipment requirements - Safety equipment - Safety & rules (Boating Handbook) - Maritime - Roads and Maritime Services

Sadly walking beaches and coastline seems to have been a particular dangerous activity here for the past week. Whilst I'm certainly not averse to carrying safety kit, we probably over estimate the risk we are exposed to in boating and under estimate it in things we take for granted.

idsebby · 23 August 2016, 08:16

I follow Murphy's law retaining to packing. What ever you don't pack you will need the most. At the same time gps has only been publicly available for about 20 years. People have been safely boating for a good bit longer than that. I suppose we could all pack chinook helicopters but then that would take a good bit of room and fun out of the adventure of boating.

Pikey Dave · 23 August 2016, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by idsebby

What about a ruggedized box bolted on that hangs off the back of the transom.
No need to swim under just bolted right there's

If you were ejected out of the boat at speed, in the kind of sea conditions that would lead to said ejection, the chances of you making it back to the boat are zero to nil. You need any "shit or bust" kit securely attached to your person. IMHO

Lions led by donkeys

Pikey Dave · 23 August 2016, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by idsebby

.....At the same time gps has only been publicly available for about 20 years. People have been safely boating for a good bit longer than that.......

I'd tend to disagree with that statement. Seafaring has always been a risky venture, just look at the 250,000 or so charted wrecks in UK waters, it's estimated that as many are still uncharted. Until the advent of electronic navigation, Loran, Decca, GPS etc, it took real skill & ability to determine your position. Modern GPS has largely reduced that to a video game. I would question how many of us on here have the genuine skills to navigate a passage in unfamiliar waters without some form of electronics. GPS has opened up navigation to the common man, & we still get it wrong, ships still sink, hit each other, run aground etc.

Lions led by donkeys

idsebby · 23 August 2016, 10:02

Well there are always risks yes. But in the 90s we still went boating and were not stopped by not having gps.

Poly · 23 August 2016, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by idsebby

Well there are always risks yes. But in the 90s we still went boating and were not stopped by not having gps.

No but more people drowned Drowning Statistics - RoSPA
and I think fewer participated!

beamishken · 23 August 2016, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by idsebby

Well there are always risks yes. But in the 90s we still went boating and were not stopped by not having gps.

My first fishing trip in my uncles brand new 15' cabin boat and 25hp johnson engine in the 70's when i was about 12 yo we had 2 lifejackets and little else apart from a flask and sandwiches
We fished happily for years out of the Tyne Wear Tees & Northumberland coast, we did upgrade to a compass and a flashy depth sounder later on.We never came to grief & never needed the rescue services.
If we attempted to set off like that now we'd probably be ridiculed & my uncle arrested for endangering the life of a minor!
How things have changed!
I think safety equipment is all about what makes you comfortable and how far you are going from assistance,as others have said you will never cover every eventuality

Pikey Dave · 23 August 2016, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by beamishken

My first fishing trip in my uncles brand new 15' cabin boat and 25hp johnson engine in the 70's when i was about 12 yo we had 2 lifejackets and little else apart from a flask and sandwiches
We fished happily for years out of the Tyne Wear Tees & Northumberland coast, we did upgrade to a compass and a flashy depth sounder later on.We never came to grief & never needed the rescue services.
If we attempted to set off like that now we'd probably be ridiculed & my uncle arrested for endangering the life of a minor!
How things have changed!
I think safety equipment is all about what makes you comfortable and how far you are going from assistance,as others have said you will never cover every eventuality

True, but we also venture further afield nowadays. When I first started diving it was in a 4m squidgy, we used to dive wrecks off Flambrough head & drag a grapnel to find them using shore transits. Now we are diving 20-30 miles offshore out of sight of land & using GPS. We regularly cross the Irish Sea for a night out in Dublin. I wouldn't have dreamed of doing any of this without current nav aids & safety gear.

Lions led by donkeys

willk · 23 August 2016, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poly

The one thing that strikes me as a very possible issue for all of us, is capsize. I often wonder if we should be making our flares, spare comms, PLB etc, much more accessible from upside down. Anyone thought this through other than having a million devices hanging off each of us?

PLB - designed to be worn, not stowed. Bung it in a trouser pocket or on a lanyard from an LJ into a jacket pocket. Handheld VHF the same if operating solo.

jonp · 23 August 2016, 13:25

Anyone considering buying a plb for use at sea might be better off using an Epirb as these are designed for water use where plb's are designed for land use. If it becomes law to carry one on your boat like many other parts of the world you are better off buying the right product for the job in the first place. What Types of PLB Are There? | Bushwalkers Wilderness Rescue Squad

Jon

Poly · 23 August 2016, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonp

Anyone considering buying a plb for use at sea might be better off using an Epirb as these are designed for water use where plb's are designed for land use. If it becomes law to carry one on your boat like many other parts of the world you are better off buying the right product for the job in the first place. What Types of PLB Are There? | Bushwalkers Wilderness Rescue Squad

Jon

PLBs sold in the UK are intended for water use (in fact until recently it was technically "illegal" to use on land). I know what you are saying that a PLB requires held in the correct attitude to transmit effectively and that may be hard in poor conditions - however there is no way you could have a PLB on your person if you mob or capsize.

There is zero prospect of expires becoming compulsory in the UK during the lifetime of the current equipment/technology. Bear in mind that even life jackets don't need to be carried, never mind a vhf!

Even commercial vessels in the UK operating up to 60miles from shore don't need to carry epirbs.

GuyC · 23 August 2016, 22:30

On my motorbike, I tend to carry my phone and wallet in my jacket rather than in a tank bag. It means that if I crash and part company with the bike, I still have a chance to summon help. In the last resort, the wallet will help to identify me.

By the same token, I would imagine that firstly you want something on your person to try and raise help (PLB / HH VHF) and secondly something to help identify you should the worst happen. Can you get PLB's / EPIRB's that have hydrostatic operation i.e. when it floods it goes off, similar to a life jacket? I suppose the issue with that is accidental operation.

An EPIRB with hydrostatic release that stayed on the boat or one that operated off the kill cord (if it had a delay for when you accidentally operated it) would cover capsize and MOB.

ShinyShoe · 23 August 2016, 22:49

PLBs are all manually activated. The risk of accidental activation and the resulting helicopter launch to investigate would probably result in a decision not to always launch... ...not something we want.

EPIRBs can be fitted with float free which will release the EPIRB from a holder using a hydrostatic type of release and then a water sensor that activates the alert. Not sure how robust they are for RIBs they are used on Fishing Boats etc. They are not fool proof. Its not tricky to get it caught on ropes etc. I'm not even sure it would release on a RIB as RIBs so rarely sink. Capsized it might not be deep enough unless it was on the A frame. Still a risk it surfaces into the void inside the RIB and that might not allow it to transmit and receive a position.

You definitely don't want it on the KC. Just gives another reason to not use the KC.

I'm not convinced if you are unconscious in the water that a PLB is likely to be that much value even if it worked. Lifejacket will float you, but unless you are in your speedos unlikely to do so properly. You really need a spray hood to keep the waves out your airway but I don't think any auto deploy the hood. There is a lag from activation to resources being sent caused by the technology and some initial investigation to see if you are at sea etc. Followed by a lag while the chopper gets to you and then finds you. I'd not give myself a lot of hope of being rescued and saved if I'm hanging in a life jacket unconscious for 90 minutes...