Wet Feet

[ian parkes]

What do you lot mean by "swiftwater rescue " moving water as in flowing rivers etc is what comes to mind .
Is there a new body or course for rescue training in moving water ?

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

Is there a new body or course for rescue training in moving water ?

yus dis lott doo itt

http://www.balawatersports.com/Bala/Rescue%203.htm

de dowen syde iz yew av too gow too wails

garF

[chris123]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

What do you lot mean by "swiftwater rescue " moving water as in flowing rivers etc is what comes to mind .

I think that's pretty much it - the need for it was highlighted in the summer floods :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/7144248.stm

[ian parkes]

Originally Posted by havener

It's a sobering thought when you realise that more people drown inland than at sea in the UK, and that until recently the biggest killer of emergency service personnel both here and in the States was water.

Flood / Swiftwater rescue is a relatively new concept, which as per usual took a number of fatalities before it was recognised. At least now it is beginning to be taken seriously, and emergency services and responders are training appropriately.

Sadly though, as with all things, there are a few diehards who believe that because they've got away with old techniques for years, there is no need to retrain. That's getting fewer and farther between though.

New concept ??
The BCU have run courses and qualifications in moving water for many years .

[havener]

The concept is more toward rescue of stranded non-water users in urban environments rather than the BCU approach which is, quite naturally, geared to those already familiar with some of the hazards in that environment.

The swiftwater rescue concept grew up in the States, most notably triggered by the death of 6 LA policemen who all, consecutively, jumped in a fast flowing storm drain to assist a child swept away further up the system. Fire services realised they were deploying crews to water incidents with no training, traditional firefighting kit, and were losing an alarming amount of crew.

Hazard perception and search / rescue techniques have grown up within this new, and still evolving, area, from basic reach / throw rescues to more advanced wier rescue and highline techniques.

[whiteminiman]

Many rescue training organisations are now making this distinction between Whitewater and Swiftwater.

Basically it's the same thing, water moving down a slope. However, whitewater rescue courses are targetted at kayakers and canoeists who will be familiar with the environment, and "reading" the water, and have access to certain limited bits of kit, often they'll be travelling as a group - so a lot of the course is about self-rescue, and prevention, as well as rescue methods.

Swiftwater rescue is targetted at rescue organisation such as the Fire Services, the Environment Agencies, Police Forces, and the RNLI. The types of equipment that these organisations will have access to is different, and so is the content of the course. It will also cover rescue in flooding situations, and the hazmat issues and so on.

Whilst there is a significant overlap between the two, I feel that they are distinct subject areas, with distinct audiences. The same applies to say First Aid at Work, and First Aid Afloat, or Wilderness First Aid.

Swiftwater rescue in the UK, only really took off after the death of Paul Metcalfe in 1999. Even now, it's vastly under-resourced when compared to other rescue areas - particularly when you look at the damage caused and lives losts through flooding in comparison with other specialist areas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/439236.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2381329.stm

Regards,
WMM

[whiteminiman]

I'm not sure whether the stat's are still accurate today, but I do remember reading a few years back that one third of all deaths "on duty" of rescue professionals were water related.

WMM

[ian parkes]

Originally Posted by havener

The concept is more toward rescue of stranded non-water users in urban environments rather than the BCU approach which is, quite naturally, geared to those already familiar with some of the hazards in that environment.

I don't see what the difference is a person standed and in need of rescue is just that, wether or not they are familiar with their surroundings or not . If they are experienced then they may be easier to help thats all .

The swiftwater rescue concept grew up in the States, most notably triggered by the death of 6 LA policemen who all, consecutively, jumped in a fast flowing storm drain to assist a child swept away further up the system. Fire services realised they were deploying crews to water incidents with no training, traditional firefighting kit, and were losing an alarming amount of crew.

That was sad , they probably had a rope but did't know how to use it .

Hazard perception and search / rescue techniques have grown up within this new, and still evolving, area, from basic reach / throw rescues to more advanced wier rescue and highline techniques.

Just some of the techniques the BCU have been using for years . Its a shame its seen a new area , as the very basics like not tying around the waist could have already saved lives . Other systems used in rescue have been learned from rock climbers and mountaineers etc, its a shame the white water guys are not being exploited here

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

Just some of the techniques the BCU have been using for years . Its a shame its seen a new area , as the very basics like not tying around the waist could have already saved lives . Other systems used in rescue have been learned from rock climbers and mountaineers etc, its a shame the white water guys are not being exploited here

They are.

All of the top guys that are responsible for delivering Swiftwater Rescue Training in the UK (through Rescue 3 and Rig Systems) have a strong background in whitewater paddling of some sort - either kayaking or canoeing. Indeed, Rescue 3 UK has very strong links with the Welsh Canoe Association.

By "new area", I think what is meant, is that the Fire Services have only recently taken it on as an area of rescue responsibility. It would be inaccurate to interpret that as meaning people are starting from scratch with knowledge and skills base.

Swiftwater rescue is very heavily influenced by whitewater technology... if you look at the kit that the Fire Services is investing in... most of it is kayak kit. I really don't feel that anybody is re-inventing the wheel here.

Cheers,
WMM

[ian parkes]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

They are.

All of the top guys that are responsible for delivering Swiftwater Rescue Training in the UK (through Rescue 3 and Rig Systems) have a strong background in whitewater paddling of some sort - either kayaking or canoeing. Indeed, Rescue 3 UK has very strong links with the Welsh Canoe Association.

By "new area", I think what is meant, is that the Fire Services have only recently taken it on as an area of rescue responsibility. It would be inaccurate to interpret that as meaning people are starting from scratch with knowledge and skills base.

Swiftwater rescue is very heavily influenced by whitewater technology... if you look at the kit that the Fire Services is investing in... most of it is kayak kit. I really don't feel that anybody is re-inventing the wheel here.

Cheers,
WMM

Thats good . As other posts have pointed out firemen and poicemen etc have been getting into problems for years , as they are often the first on scene but lack the skills and knowlege as well as basic equipment .
Even the RLSS covers some of the basic water rescue knowlege they could use .
I think the situation this year 2 specials did nothing while a child drowned in a pond was about as bad as it gets .

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

I think the situation this year 2 specials did nothing while a child drowned in a pond was about as bad as it gets .

IIRC they were community support officers not specials. Did nothing is also a little unfair - they called for help - and did exactly what they had been trained to do - not put themselves in danger. They could easily have been another "rescue service tragedy".

[Limey Linda]

Reading this thread I am starting to feel very lucky here in Arizona. It may be classed as a desert but swift water rescues are very common when it rains.
All fire dept. crews are trained and they carry the right equipment. However, sometimes it is even too dangerous for them and a helo has to be used.
There is a catch however: if you have to be rescued due to your own stupidity you get to pay the total cost of your rescue. Same applies to some mountain rescues. Seems fair to me but probably would not be acceptable in the UK.

[ian parkes]

Originally Posted by Polwart

IIRC they were community support officers not specials. Did nothing is also a little unfair - they called for help - and did exactly what they had been trained to do - not put themselves in danger. They could easily have been another "rescue service tragedy".

Sorry but calling for help in a situation like that is as good as doing nothing ,

I don't know the difference between comunity support and special


Limey I agree fools should pay the bill , but the UK the tax payer gets the bill , fools and oxygen thieves are the winners here

[whiteminiman]

RLSS training - whilst very good - does not deal with moving water (apart from Beach Lifeguards, but then the sea is moving in a very different way to a river). The Bronze Medallion used to be part of basic police training, it has long since been dropped. Indeed, to work as a PCSO there is no requirement of being able to swim.

The two PCSO's did the correct thing. The child had submerged, and they had no visual confirmation where he was. They had no training. They had no equipment. What were they supposed to do? Leap in and start randomly searching under water? Even with appropriate SCUBA equipment, an underwater search for a body in swiftwater is a very very difficult and skilled thing to do.

Regardless of the level of training - if they have no accurate idea of the position of the casualty, and no equipment, then you shouldn't be getting wet. Minimum kit would be boots, a drysuit, a PFD (bouyancy aid), and a helmet.

Getting wet is almost always the last option - in any water rescue discipline.

Reach - Throw - Wade - Row - Tow - Go

that's the order that you would attempt rescues in, starting with the least dangerous, and moving to the most dangerous. (There is healthy debate at where Helo fits into that).

Cheers,
WMM

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

Sorry but calling for help in a situation like that is as good as doing nothing ,

I have to dispute that. As whiteminiman says they did the correct thing. It would be all too possible we would be armchair debating if they had died needlessly trying to save a (probably already dead) child.

I don't know the difference between comunity support and special

Community support officers are employed by police forces. They have very limited powers. They have no power of arrest (but they can detain you whilst waiting for a real policeman), but can issue some fixed penalty notices. The responsibilities vary from area to area - but typically are things like fining for littering, grafiti, truancy, dog fouling, cycling on the pavement, confiscating alchohol from under 18's in public.

Effectively they are somewhere between police officers and park wardens - a bit like a traffic warden. I think those two guys got a raw deal from the tabloid media in this country who as usual managed to over sensationalise a tragic accident into being someone's fault. Out of interest if the fire service or ambulance crew had been first on scene would you expect them to have put themselves in harms way, without the appropriate equipment/training?

Specials are part time volunteer police officers (although in some areas they may be getting paid). They have the same powers as a "normal" police officer. How they are used varies from force to force - but they are commonly seen around here at football grounds, or closing off streets for marathons/parades etc. However they can be used on normal street patrols etc too.

Limey I agree fools should pay the bill , but the UK the tax payer gets the bill , fools and oxygen thieves are the winners here

the problem is when you get charged for being rescued - you delay the calling for help - and lives will be lost or emergency services put at more risk.

[ian parkes]

Sorry guys my memory of the incident and the reports in the media must be wrong. It was a while back now.
I understood the incident took place in a pond in a park or similar , anyway still water not moving (swift water)
I agree if a body has submerged in fairly fast moving water that has enough hazards to necesitate diving kit then jumping in and searching is unlikely to help especially if person doesn't have the water skills .

I do remember a radio interview with a policeman who was not happy about the lack of RLSS training in the Policeforce . It is a sad reflection on the priorities of modern society. Iam certain police officers have to learn life support and first aid skill , and that after all is a major part of the Bronze Medallion

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

RLSS training - whilst very good - does not deal with moving water (apart from Beach Lifeguards, but then the sea is moving in a very different way to a river).

The two PCSO's did the correct thing. The child had submerged, and they had no visual confirmation where he was. They had no training. They had no equipment.

Regardless of the level of training - if they have no accurate idea of the position of the casualty, and no equipment, then you shouldn't be getting wet. Minimum kit would be boots, a drysuit, a PFD (bouyancy aid), and a helmet.

Getting wet is almost always the last option - in any water rescue discipline.

Reach - Throw - Wade - Row - Tow - Go



Cheers,
WMM

The only RLSS UK awards that I can think of other than Beach Lifeguard are the Emergency Response for Outdoor Activity Supervisors .
And the Emergency Response Open Water (aimed at any one working in an open space adjacent to open water Park Rangers , Wardens and Farmers) .

The Police Bronze Medallion is still an RLSS UK award but I don't know of any one that has taught it .

But these awards don't go to the level of Swiftwater Rescue it's a specialist rescue award scheme more suited to particular inland environments the Canadian Lifesavers have a section in there Patrol Riders Syllabus for RWC but it is only very brief .

Any loss of life is tragic but you have to look at the drowning chain.

Lack of Education - Lack of Safety Advice and Protection - Lack of Supervision-Inability to Cope.

By the Children being allowed unrestricted access to the water did not help.
By the victims Ignorance or misjudgement of the Dangers did not help
Lack of Supervision at an open water site did not help
Inability of the casualty to cope with the emergency or be able to be rescued did not help.

This sort of tragedy could be avoided if schools educated the danger of water more whether its still , swift water or beach .
Also if local authorities warned of the dangers and where possible restrict access.
Then these sort of tragic incidents could be avoided.

[Nos4r2]

You're right-it was still water.

PCSOs seem to be the current method of fooling us that there's actually police on the streets while spending as little as possible and being totally ineffective.

Same farce as the highway mob and sticking 'police' graphics onto the civvy contractors vehicles.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Any loss of life is tragic but you have to look at the drowning chain.

Lack of Education - Lack of Safety Advice and Protection - Lack of Supervision-Inability to Cope.

By the Children being allowed unrestricted access to the water did not help.
By the victims Ignorance or misjudgement of the Dangers did not help
Lack of Supervision at an open water site did not help
Inability of the casualty to cope with the emergency or be able to be rescued did not help.

This sort of tragedy could be avoided if schools educated the danger of water more whether its still , swift water or beach .
Also if local authorities warned of the dangers and where possible restrict access.
Then these sort of tragic incidents could be avoided.

All very true. I doubt anything would have made a lot of difference in this case though. The mother and stepfather were vocally apportioning blame to everyone except themselves for the tragedy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/7006412.stm

[ian parkes]

Just watched that vidio and the pictures of the pond .A pond that kids obviously use as a swimming pool
I stand by what i said it was a sad situation that could have been so different .
Swift water eh .

I ask you what fit person could ever live with doing what the PCSO . ???