Wet Feet

[whiteminiman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...npolice206.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...er/7006412.stm

The child had submerged underwater. Water that was approximately 2m deep, and murky.

Pond water is usually pretty murky - and it would be even more so after the struggling of the boy, and the rescue attempts of the anglers.

Have you ever tried doing a finger-tip search of the bottom of a pond/lake with minimal visibility and no SCUBA equipment? I have... but that was as part of a team of about 18 trained individuals, where we could cover a relatively large area, relatively quickly. But it's still a difficult thing to do, and very very unpleasant. How the heck are two untrained PCSO's supposed to do that?

We have no idea or not whether these PCSO's could swim, let alone be able to surface dive down to 2m.

Cheers,
WMM

P.S. Thanks Tim, I'd forgotten about those two open water awards, but they still don't cover the dangers of moving water at all - apart from the generic "it's cold, and the banks are slippery"

[C2 RIBS]

Safe to say that this issue was raised at the time, their apparent lack of action to try to save any life is the issue. This was not fast water, it was still and another child went into the water to try and help. Perhaps these people will one day see they should have tried

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

P.S. Thanks Tim, I'd forgotten about those two open water awards, but they still don't cover the dangers of moving water at all - apart from the generic "it's cold, and the banks are slippery"

Err a little bit more detail than that ."The award is an assessment in practical lifesaving skills that may be needed by anyone supervising or teaching or coaching programmed activity it is designed to assess the candidates knowledge of principles of Rescue , Resuscitation and Aftercare"
The activity analysis form alone covers

Site Location
Description of site
Water Conditions
Underwater Ground Composition
Local Hazards
Entries and Exits
Access
Shelter and Facilities
Site Legislation
Rescue Craft and Equipment

It 's all about effecting rescues and moving water is in their IE weirs sluice gates and so on . If you look at the Rescue 3 syllabus
then up to the Rescue Technician they look pretty similar.
ROSPA and RLSS UK have a joint publication Safety at Inland Water Sites ISBN 1 85088 0921
And don't forget Lifeguards also Beach Lifeguards can also operate at inland sites .

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

It 's all about effecting rescues and moving water is in their IE weirs sluice gates and so on . If you look at the Rescue 3 syllabus
then up to the Rescue Technician they look pretty similar.

No, I've got to disagree with you pretty strongly there. There is absolutely no comparison between what the RLSS teach in their open water awards, and what Rescue 3 teach.

Unless you've got some RLSS teaching materials that I've not... then I really think you're overselling the content of the open water awards. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in any RLSS manuals about rescues from weirs!? I agree that the dangers of weirs (and other elements) are discussed, but nothing beyond that.

Cheers,
WMM

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by Cutlass

.... another child went into the water to try and help...

The child going into help was the one that ultimately drowned.

His sister got into difficulty, the boy went into rescue her. The anglers assisted and were able to rescue the girl, but not the boy.

WMM

[ian parkes]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...npolice206.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...er/7006412.stm

The child had submerged underwater. Water that was approximately 2m deep, and murky.

Pond water is usually pretty murky - and it would be even more so after the struggling of the boy, and the rescue attempts of the anglers.

Have you ever tried doing a finger-tip search of the bottom of a pond/lake with minimal visibility and no SCUBA equipment? I have... but that was as part of a team of about 18 trained individuals, where we could cover a relatively large area, relatively quickly. But it's still a difficult thing to do, and very very unpleasant. How the heck are two untrained PCSO's supposed to do that?

We have no idea or not whether these PCSO's could swim, let alone be able to surface dive down to 2m.

Cheers,
WMM

Its hardly a finger tip search (police diver style )that was required as events showed the lads body was pulled out by a normal copper . Not exactly a small object buried in the silt was he . and at 2m deep you could feel a large object with your feet then reach down and retrieve it.

In this day of every propfessional body being required to do a risk assesment the police failed by sending these 2 PCSO's out alone in an outdoor area . Iam surprised they could even ride a pushbike .

[C2 RIBS]

I stand corrected by whiteminiman, fair play, but I cannot excuse anyone who fails to try. It appears to me there is an immense amount of training to qualify for any of the rescue teams at whatever level.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

Its hardly a finger tip search (police diver style )that was required as events showed the lads body was pulled out by a normal copper . Not exactly a small object buried in the silt was he . and at 2m deep you could feel a large object with your feet then reach down and retrieve it.

In this day of every propfessional body being required to do a risk assesment the police failed by sending these 2 PCSO's out alone in an outdoor area . Iam surprised they could even ride a pushbike .

Ian I think you are being totally unfair to two PCSOs getting paid diddly squat and who wouldn't be expected to stop a mugger running away... not wanting to get political but they are jumped up park wardens. Had the news reports been that a traffic warden or site security guard hadn't jumped in I don't think the reaction would be the same. It is because in some way we expect these people to act like policemen even though they are not trained, paid or empowered to behave like policemen. (Although actually I would never "expect" an ordinary PC to jump in, although equally I wouldn't be surprised if they did).

It doesn't look like what I would normally call a pond - more like a small fishing lake. The bottom is quite possibly full of all sorts of unexpected hazards like shopping trolleys too. They also have no knowledge of the depth or the potential hazards that might be there.

Are you abnormally tall? I have never met anyone who could breath (unassisted) whilst standing in 2m of water.

I think the fact that someone (even if it was another child) did drown (despite members of the public's attempts to rescue them) whilst trying to save another indicates that this wasn't as simple a rescue as you are suggesting.

[ian parkes]

The news reports and pictures give no reason to suspect any dificulties as you describe Polwart . Surely if there were that would have been included in the report to help ease public opinion.
Any able bodied person would have had a go , their job or wages should have no bearing on that decision .

This discussion had made excuses of Swift water and underwater obstacles etc etc but no such dangers are mentioned or visible in the extensive reports .
Those that had the gumption to help simply arrived too late .

[havener]

As WMM has said earlier, Paul Metcalfe was a Greater Manchester firefighter who died (IIRC) in a still water incident near Rochdale. He was attempting to search for a teenager lost in (relatively) shallow water, and was secured to his colleagues on the back by a line around the waist.

The line was not kept taught enough, and became caught under a submerged tree. Ultimately, as his colleagues pulled him back to the bank, they were in fact creating an inverted pulley which pulled him under the surface of the water.

As said, this was in STILL water.

The two PCSOs did do the right thing - it sounds harsh, but in rescue there is a three tier priority - self, team, casualty. This could easily have become a "child and two rescuers dead" headline.

Never take any watercourse for granted. In floods, manholes lift and all sorts of debris can lead to an entrapment. In ponds, what looks like a shallow surface of mud can conceal sumps, buried debris, all sorts. Just ask any fire crew or coastguard mud team.

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is stand back and wait for support - after all, the compassion factor is what gets most people involved. But sometimes it's the right thing.

The two PCSOs stuck by their training - whether that training was insufficient, which I personally feel it is, is a different matter. They will no doubt ask themselves the same question for the rest of their lives - it is hardly helpful for those with (a) no rescue experience or (b) who were not there to second judge and condemn them.

Simon

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

This discussion had made excuses of Swift water and underwater obstacles etc etc but no such dangers are mentioned or visible in the extensive reports .

I have never mentioned swift water (I think it was you who introduced this case into the swift water discussion) and underwater obstacles comes from my experience sailing small dinghies in similar sized pools of water where shopping trollies were a hazard to navigation - and the risk of stepping on needles could not be discounted! As I have already said I think the media has an agenda with this

Any able bodied person would have had a go , their job or wages should have no bearing on that decision .
Those that had the gumption to help simply arrived too late .

Well I think we will have to agree to disagree. The first people to go in the water (from my understanding) were anglers who were there before the PCSOs - and who did manage to save the girl who was at the surface. The official advice consistently issued by the emergency services is NOT to enter the water to attempt a rescue yourself but to get EXPERT help. I think that by the time the PCSOs arrived it was probably too late anyway given that the casualty was no longer visible at the surface. Getting to, locating and recovering the casualty and comencing CPR (are PCSOs even trained?) before irreprable brain damage would be unlikely even with an expert, trained rescuer.

[Limey Linda]

Thought I would chime in on this one. How people act in such situations is very much dependant on the personality of the individuals present at the time of an incident. Some of us are impetuous and others are not. I have been involved in rescues ( only one water related). In all occasions I said to myself afterwards " that was a stupid thing to do" The Missus saying "you bloody idiot." Fortunately, I am still here despite my stupidity. Forunately, as I get older I seem to develop a little more smarts.

[ian parkes]

I guess given the facts we have we must just agree to having different opinions .
It only started with me asking about the new term Swift water , whoever said it and I just remembered this incident .
I know what i would have done and have done in the past. Had i and many others followed the "take no risk at all" policy there would have been a lot more deaths.
It is training and experience that makes any person faced with a quick decision act correctly , plus a great dollop of common sence . Thats where the police failed at the roots of training .

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

. If you look at the Rescue 3 syllabus
then up to the Rescue Technician they look pretty similar.

Not the Rescue Technician but the courses leading up to it look pretty similar to me in comparison to RLSS UK ERAS or have I missed something.



I don't think I am overselling the open water courses I am only quoting from the syllabus it does state that it is not a lifeguard award so I apologise for not mentioning that before and perhaps misleading some who have read that post.
The range statements in your National Beach Lifeguard Qualification manual state .
Coastal ,esturial,river and inland water locations all open water and that is a lifeguard award.



I have the same training manuals as you 2007 1st Edition ERAS
are you saying that If asked to teach at a site with moving water and a weir and or sluice gate was there, then you would not discuss and practice rescues techniques. Same goes for the Emergency Response Open Water which is aimed at Park Wardens , Rangers and Farmers who probably have weirs and sluice gates at their places of work.

It is discussed as you say and it is also based on site specifics .

"This is a test of competence in accident prevention , aquatic rescue ,life support and aftercare for those supervising 'known' participants on , in or near open water and /or other water users (as specified on the candidates own certificate) "
River
Lake
Canal
Sea
tick the box that relates to the training venue .

I would hope the TA Open Water or TA NBLQ delivering the course would know how to teach how to rescue someone in that type of environment safely otherwise why have such an award?? if it only covered certain types of water.

I am not talking flood rescue which is RESCUE 3 Technician Level which I think is where you strongly disagree with me perhaps, from me not making it clear with the awards leading up to Rescue Technician where I drew the comparison. I am talking supervised activities or work related incidents.
Normal Operating Procedures
Emergency action plans
All sites that have undergone a site visit and Risk Assessment and a proper plan of action put in place to minimise the risk.

[DM]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

Had i and many others followed the "take no risk at all" policy there would have been a lot more deaths.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Polwart

Getting to, locating and recovering the casualty and comencing CPR (are PCSOs even trained?) before irreprable brain damage would be unlikely even with an expert, trained rescuer.

Do a google on Mammalian Diving Reflex. It's the reason why resus in a drowning victim is never stopped until the core temperature of the body is back to normal. MDR is more pronounced in children.

Originally Posted by Polwart

and the risk of stepping on needles could not be discounted!

Old WW2 mines are a risk as well.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

Agreed

Mr Manning - do you think your ambulance service colleagues would have entered the water to attempt rescue if they had been first on scene (don't include yourself in that as you obviously have specialist knowledge of rescuing people from water)? But I do agree with both Ian and Limey's comments - people do get saved by others acting on "impulse" - although it would be wrong to suggest people are in some way inhuman for either not having that impulse or having it trained out of them.

Do a google on Mammalian Diving Reflex. It's the reason why resus in a drowning victim is never stopped until the core temperature of the body is back to normal. MDR is more pronounced in children.

I was aware of the effect - the googling I just did was a little vague on how long it actually prolongs survival for and in what number of cases. I think most people would recognise that your chances of survival fall dramatically if you disappear below the surface without someone immediately pulling you out.

Old WW2 mines are a risk as well.

I think you are twisting what I was trying to say. Ponds in parks (at least some of the ones I have sailed in) are unfortunately littered with all sorts of crap - including unfortunately discarded syringes.

[DM]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Mr Manning

No need to be so formal. You can call me Dave if you want.

Originally Posted by Polwart

do you think your ambulance service colleagues would have entered the water to attempt rescue if they had been first on scene

I hope they would have tried something and not stood round like lemons. People who put a uniform whether Police, Fire Ambulance, PCSO or whatever usually accept it may mean putting yourself at risk on occasion.

Originally Posted by Polwart

I would never "expect" an ordinary PC to jump in, although equally I wouldn't be surprised if they did

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Polwart

I think most people would recognise that your chances of survival fall dramatically if you disappear below the surface without someone immediately pulling you out.

Now you're sounding like Codprawn. I was simply pointing out that, in lots of cases, people, especially children, have recovered after prolonged immersion.

Originally Posted by Polwart

I think you are twisting what I was trying to say.

No I wasn't. I was taking the mickey. To suggest that someone wouldn't go into the water to try and save a child in case he stepped on a needle is ridiculous.

[gaelforce]

Two chimps getting undressed for the bath, a bit worried after reading this thread.

One jumps in and shouts - ooh ooh ooh aah aah aah ooh ooh

The other says - Will I put some cold in?

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

Now you're sounding like Codprawn. I was simply pointing out that, in lots of cases, people, especially children, have recovered after prolonged immersion.

It should be highlighted, that the vast majority of cases where people have survived prolonged immersion (upto 66 minutes I believe is the record) has been in very very cold water... which not only stimulates the Mammilian Dive Reflex more strongly, but also the preserving effects of hypothermia (which not an awful lot is known about) are thought to assist greatly in preventing brain damage.

WMM