What the "cheapest" way to stay safe at sea?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SR4

Anyway, you all know what I mean, seafaring has been going on for centuries, long before RYA courses, so I think that proves you don't need to do one, but if you can afford it then it is a jolly good idea, subject to a decent instructor who is not a nobber

I'm sure that RYA PB2 courses are not responsible for this but sea casualty figures have improved enormously over the centuries!

Historically people went to sea for various reasons, food, defence, exploration etc - but typically they learned their 'trade' over a prolonged period gradually by osmosis or by tuition from a 'master' who taught their apprentice over many years, before their protigee was set loose on their own. Its unlikely that many 'land lubbers' woke up one day decided the sea looked fun, bought a boat and set off.

I would certainly agree with your comments about instructors, and notwithstanding my earlier observation that there are cheap courses around (and a cheap course run by an 'average' instructor is still going to teach most new folk a lot) - there are definitely different types of course around and different instructors so it pays to hunt around to understand what makes a particular school suited to your needs. e.g. a sailing club is likely to be focussed largely around the sort of ribbing that their rescue boats do (short journeys, local waters, low speed manoeuvres, towing etc) whilst a dedicated powerboat school might be more likely to have you navigating and thinking about arriving on a 'far off' beach or harbour. Sailing clubs and outdoor centres also usually see RIBS as a tool and may only run a PB2 course once or twice a year - whilst a 'professional' school might run a course every week or two [I recently heard someone complain a course they were on was run quite complacently though - as it was 'just another pb2'] . Boats also vary widely so whist it might be fun, or even interesting, to learb in a 9m diesel 250 HP rib if you will mostly be using a tiller steered dory with 15 HP then finding a school that can provide plenty of relevant practice is probably more beneficial. Small schools are likely to use one instructor for most (all?) of a course which means either a personality clash or a poor quality instructor will mean you don't get as much out of it - whereas a big training centre might have a dozen people all on a course together and you stand a better chance of finding someone who you can work with [but certainly in some cases several relatively young/inexperienced instructors - and the 'expert' ends up coordinating rather than training].

One final thing to be aware of is it is rare to hear anyone not recommend the school they did their training at. But of course people normally only do one PB2 course in their life, so have no real ability to say "XYZ runs a great course" he may in fact only run a mediocre course - just that it was still useful.

[spareribs]

Originally Posted by Polwart

No your perception of risk associated with rock climbing is probably wrong! Statistically you are more likely to die playing table tennis (Risk of dying and sporting activities).

How many people walk into Tiso buy a climbing rack, rope and harness and then set off with no training - because it doesn't look that hard? Most people who have climbed a few times with a friend don't feel confident enough to head off into the wilds on their own, they either continue climbing under the supervision of their experienced friend as an 'apprentice' or they go and get some proper training. As with boating there is no certainty that your experienced friend is not introducing bad habits or techniques which are now considered outdated; although since their life usually depends on it to there might be more of a motivation to get it right.

Yeh it probably is mate. I just completely fabricated it, just trying to be cleaver, they are completely different sets risk assesments for each, incomparable in fact, a ludicrous statement of generalisation around the fact that each can be fatal. Should have saved your fingers.

[EnglishLes]

Originally Posted by Polwart

No your perception of risk associated with rock climbing is probably wrong! Statistically you are more likely to die playing table tennis (Risk of dying and sporting activities).

This is confusing the death rate per 100,000 people that play table tennis with the death rate per a set number of climbs.

It would be much better to compare the death rate per hour of climbing/playing table tennis - do you really believe that Rock Climbing is safer than Table Tennis.

For a long time people claimed that motorways were safer than normal roads - they are if you compare driver/passenger trip miles but if you compare driver/passenger trip hours then they are the same.

A true statistic is if you buy a Saturday lottery ticket before Thursday you are more likely to die in a road accident than you are to win the lottery. Another true statistic is that you are more likely to die in bed than anywhere else - I can imagine that a number of Rib Netters will now start sleepling on the floor.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SR4

Think I already covered all that unless I am typing in white ink again Or is it because I am not an RYA instructor so I can't be believed

I'm not an RYA instructor either so remove that chip frae yir shoulder. However, any competent trainer, would realise that you imparted some information early on, but the OP has summarised his learning and missed out some key points; thats the difference between a trainer and a person with experience - the former checks that you've understood it - the latter assumes that any halfwit would have been paying attention

[Hightower]

Blimey! At this posting rate spareribs will break Codprawns all time record.

[spareribs]

Originally Posted by Hightower

Blimey! At this posting rate spareribs will break Codprawns all time record.

I'm new to this forum thing and boating, so it a double enthusiasm burst. I'm like a sponge at the moment.

[Hightower]

You any good at Bass fishing then?

[SR4]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Is that a monkey you are spanking?

Originally Posted by Polwart

However, any competent trainer, would realise that you imparted some information early on, but the OP has summarised his learning and missed out some key points; thats the difference between a trainer and a person with experience - the former checks that you've understood it - the latter assumes that any halfwit would have been paying attention

More like posters are not reading the thread properly!

[willk]

Originally Posted by spareribs

I'm like a sponge at the moment.

Yup!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by EnglishLes

This is confusing the death rate per 100,000 people that play table tennis with the death rate per a set number of climbs.

yes unfortunately I don't have access to the full paper - but it would seem that whilst they compared several of the sports using the sort of metric you want, they did not do this with table tennis. Still the following trend is probably surprising to most people based on gut feel:

Base Jumping > Skydiving > Hangliding > Marathon Running > Scuba Diving > Rock Climbing > Canoeing > Skiing

It would be much better to compare the death rate per hour of climbing/playing table tennis

actually I think the per flight / per clamp / per game approach is probably more meaningful, I'm not sure I am really 20x more likely to die on an all day climb than a quick 'sprint' up a local crag.

- do you really believe that Rock Climbing is safer than Table Tennis.

I suspect that rock climbers are probably generally quite fit and healthy and my experience is whilst it is tough it is not a major cardiac 'load', this is consistent with the abstract of the german paper which implies traumatic injuries are more likely a problem in 'perceived high risk activities' and cardiac events are more likely an issue in 'perceived safe' sports - e.g. football > tennis > table tennis - so no, clearly a traumatic death is probably more likely climbing that playing table tennis (unless you play against people with anger management issues); but the point is that rock climbing is actually pretty safe compared to the public perception of risk. I've no data to back it up - but I wouldn't be surprised if you were more likely to die driving to / from a climb than actually climbing. Unfortunately that table didn't include sailing/boating but I'd guess its higher risk than climbing.

[mick]

Originally Posted by spareribs

Get a submarine ??

Bottle out and stay at home.

[EnglishLes]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I've no data to back it up - but I wouldn't be surprised if you were more likely to die driving to / from a climb than actually climbing.

I used to go paragliding and when people used to ask about it being dangerous, I always used to say I think I am likely to have an accident driving to / from the hill than I was while paragliding.

As it turns out I did have a serious accident paragliding, which is why I gave it up.

[GJ0KYZ]

A distinction can be made between rock climbing and mountaineering. Climbing is a gymnastic sport where vain young men spend the day dangling on the end of a rope trying to do 'the move'. Mountaineering on the other hand requires judgement, an understanding of the weather and rock conditions, teamwork and commitment. It's not just the Himalayas that are dangerous; ask anyone who's climbed An Teallach in winter and they'll tell you how grim it is up north. I had that Reinhold Messner in the back of my cab once....

[BruceB]

Diving itself is also a lot safer than is generally thought, the accident statistics don't thin out the fact that a majority of accidents are health related and were only fatal because of the environment.
Lots of folk have heart attacks, particularly at the beginning of the diving season after a long layoff, that would have been survivable in normal circumstances.
Unfortunately being underwater they are generally fatal.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by EnglishLes

As it turns out I did have a serious accident paragliding, which is why I gave it up.

I conclude you were driving too carefully!

[EnglishLes]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I conclude you were driving too carefully!

That week I wasn't driving at all as I was with a group in Spain in a minibus!

[Max...]

SR4 - it has to be said, you really are quite unique in a very special way, how on earth did this forum survive before you decided to share your 'wisdom' with us through so many varied topics this last week or so. You are truly the Messiah.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by SR4

I have to disagree for someone with no skill in navigation giving them paper charts is plain daft, even an anchor, a plotter is just like a Tom Tom and you would have to be totally daft to get that wrong even with little knowledge, but I do accept there are some daft people on the forum and you have to look at the lowest common denominator

At the risk of re opening a previous debate (I am not trying to) I think the approach should be balanced, Experience AND training keeps people safe.

Sending someone out without training is daft. Full stop, and whilst getting the knowledge from a friend or relative may be usefull, it will not substitute for the formal training that should be offered by a competent and quality training organisation.

The formal training gives the person the background knowledge to enable them to be safe, whilst then allowing them to go and get the experience. The experience then gained will go to enhance the training, to make for a more balanced approach. However experience alone can and does lead to complacency, which is where refresher training comes in.

Many industries require refresher training as people who have been doing a job for many years may fall into bad habits, or may not have had a chance to catch up on the latest thinking/technology etc, and benefit from this.

This is seen in many examples, (serious accidents in my company are more common in people with more than 10 years work experience)

There is a lot of information available about rule based knowledge (based on regs, and teaching) and skill (experienced) based knowledge and how each is used in a different way by the brain, and then by the user, some has a higher priority and is retained longer and carries more relative importance to the individual than the other, but generally speaking skill based knowledge is relied upon before rule based knowledge.

This indicates that until someone has the experience, then formal teaching does keep them safer until they gain experience, which is why simulators are such a good tool for learning, as you experience mistakes and situations, thereby aquiring the skill based knowledge. And how do i know this? by being trained of course.

For a beginner I would have to say formal training is the best way to go, it helps to keep you safe and gives you the knowledge to help you help yourself. Or at least how to call for help!

As for the issue of charts, and chart plotters, I would love to see a plotter that works without power! If the chart plotter breaks and you have no knowledge of navigation how are you going to ask for help??? at least a chart will not stop working. (although it might get wet, so laminating it might be a good idea, and keeping it safe.)
We have systems that cost 100's of thousands of pounds, but I still dont think they are better than a 25 quid chart, (and the knowledge how to use it) My wife can read a road map, but my twat nav confuses the hell out of her

Before electronic stuff, I would ensure a flare or 2 is on board.

One last thing, although mentioned, warm weather clothing is not just to keep you dry.
Waterproof, or rain proof clothing will increase your cold water survival time dramatically (along with a lifejacket) and the water around the UK is always considered cold water, even in summer. Things like hypothermia, and survival are essential training as far as I am concerned, as you dont get to experience it much in reality (hopefully).

Finally, I am not advocating mandatory training just that any sort of formal training is the best way to help keep a newcomer safe, and is certainly cheaper than a plotter, and gizmos, so is the Cheapest IMHO. (Which is what the OP 1st asked for)

Tonto

[Channel Ribs]

Originally Posted by tonto

(Which is what the OP 1st asked for)

Alas, I suspect the OP was asking for advice on what cheap gadgets he could justify buying in the hope they could claim to be related to safety.

Being recommended a free RNLI sea check, an 80 quid VHF course and a 200 quid PB2 course was not what they wanted.