What's going on here then?

BogMonster · 08 May 2006, 04:47

More tubular problems....

Boat in to water yesterday. After a couple of hours messing around, tied up alongside a Rigid Raider belonging to a bloke I know and got on to that, was chatting to him and noticed a flappy bit of fabric

It definitely wasn't like that before it went in the water, took it out today and a patch applied by the first owner is peeling off (some kind soul stuck a knife in it for him, but fortunately they were too thick to run it down the side!)

Photo attached - it was about half that amount before I gave it a tug, but it peels back really easily, which is surprising as it has been on there for a few years. I was surprised to see it had gone from nothing to this in just a couple of hours use after so long, but then it is peeling back very easily (have not pulled it right off as then it will go down!)

What do you think - my initial thought was that the tube had been sanded but the back of the patch maybe hadn't, and from what I have read, you need to sand down both the tube and the back of the patch to "key" them don't you?? The glue seems to have all stayed on the tube, but the patch is very "clean".

BogMonster · 08 May 2006, 12:25

Another question then...

Does anybody have any thoughts about the wisdom (or otherwise!) of setting up a big 500W floodlight close to the repair to compensate for low ambient temps, for the first critical couple of hours of glue curing time? By close I mean close enough that you could feel the warmth with your hand but not be in any danger of burning your hand. Just thinking it might help - I am going to have to do the job outside so the heater in my garage isn't going to be much use.

Today is "supposed" to be 13*C so I intend to have the afternoon off and fix it as it will probably be the last day with temps in double figures until the sun starts heading back this way again!

Ta

Christopher · 08 May 2006, 17:40

Almost certainly the reverse of the patch that was used was not buffed/sanded. If it had been, there would have been traces of the original adhesive still left on the black side of the patch. It might also be that when the patch was put on, it was not wiped with thinners and might not have been rolled with sufficient pressure being apllied. Even though it had been in place for a long time, it would only have taken an edge to lift and it would peel away.

As to the question of lamps, yes I would see no problem about using them to bring the temperature up, although even at 13 degrees C it should not take too long for the adhesive to cure.

Alice · 08 May 2006, 17:54

Was that the only Rib for sale in your area ( Southern Atlantic!

) at the time? Not saying that it's a bit of a pup! Oh no.

BogMonster · 08 May 2006, 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice

Was that the only Rib for sale in your area ( Southern Atlantic!

) at the time? Not saying that it's a bit of a pup! Oh no.

Yes it was, as it happens. They are few and far between! Most are really old ones, in fact I think this (and another one which came at the same time) are the newest privately owned ones here.

Given that the freight would be ~ £2000, I doubt I could have got a five and a half year old RIB in the UK ready to go with engine, trailer and a respectable selection of instruments (fishfinder/VHF/GPS) for five grand, to get to what I paid for it. Most of the ones I saw that age in the UK were nearer ten without the freight! So I will persevere, despite the problems. Buying second hand boats is like buying second hand vehicles, you can guarantee that somebody won't have done something properly, just a question of what that something is.

So it may well be a puppy, but its a cheap puppy and that leaves quite a lot to spend on dog food

What I am annoyed about though, is that the Rigid Raider I was originally after is now up for sale, the owner having told me only a couple of months ago that it wasn't for sale

I want one of those, waaaay cooler than any RIB

and a darn sight tougher as well, and unsinkable, cost about fifty grand new, and you can run 'em up on the beach and they won't bat an eyelid! Wish I had waited now, but I ain't changing just yet. - though the concept of something that doesn't leak all the frickin time is quite appealing, fixing it is getting v boring

I have just finished fixing the toob and I am almost sure that the reverse of the patch hadn't been prepared at all, having had a close look when I peeled it right off, in fact I could probably have scrubbed it up and re-used it but I didn't risk it. It took me half an hour and 2 fully charged batteries with the 60 grit flap wheel on my DeWalt electric drill to get the glue off the tube, so it was ^&*ing well stuck to that half!!

The flap wheel is brilliant, hate to think how long it would have taken to get that glue off by hand.... and I used it to get the glue off my fingers afterwards, its good for that too

As is the lamp, a perfect heat source, the new patch is clamped on with a cunning clampy thing I found in a shop the other day and bought for the very purpose, and is sunbathing gently about a foot from the lamp right now (after dark) with everything nice and warm but not too hot.

I don't have any thinners so I used the nearest I could get to acetone which was nail varnish remover! It isn't pure acetone but hopefully near enough. The patch I did the other week seems to have stuck OK though, having used that to clean it prior to glueing.

Alice · 08 May 2006, 22:26

There was a guy in St Mawes nr. Falmouth doing trips with a Rigid Raider a few years back. It had a pair of Merc 150's on the back. it went ok, but they are heavy old things. OK if the Government are paying the fuel bills.

Hugh Jardon · 08 May 2006, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogMonster

The flap wheel is brilliant, I used it to get the glue off my fingers afterwards, its good for that too

The mrs will be chuffed i am sure

glad to see you got it repaired all ok, you are in a tough part of the world so being able to do your own DIY is a must i am sure....have fun

ian parkes · 08 May 2006, 23:44

Nail varnish remover ?? just check its not combined with some sort of moisturizer . The bottle my missus has says it has a moisturizer in it too so I geass thats some sort of oil , ???? yea Iam confused but it smells brilliant

BogMonster · 08 May 2006, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice

There was a guy in St Mawes nr. Falmouth doing trips with a Rigid Raider a few years back. It had a pair of Merc 150's on the back. it went ok, but they are heavy old things. OK if the Government are paying the fuel bills.

Alistair reckons his will do about 30kt flat out, that is with a single 140 Mariner on the back (proper fit is 2 x 140s)

He says it is heavy (I was looking at summat earlier, the 6.5m Beach Raider is about 1.3 tons I think it said) but he reckons it will leave a RIB like mine standing in really rough conditions, just hammers over anything and you will NEVER break it

Yeah - fuel - good point - 2 x 140s at full blast =

££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ £££££££££££££££

Still want one tho

Nail varnish remover - yes it has some other stuff in it, ingredients don't mean anything to me, but it is all I have got/can get in this neck of the woods .... anyway the acetone is the main ingredient I think. If the patches fall off I'll just not bother using anything next time, buff it up, a blast of compressed air to clear the dust and stick it on.

sunrider · 08 May 2006, 23:57

Hi Stephan - you mentioned that RIBs are few in the Falklands for several reasons...do you think there would be a market for a used 30' ex-military RIB, twin 300hp diesels with jet drive? I'm reconditioning one now for resale and the idea of delivering it in the water from the USA to the Falklands sounds good to me if the $ make sense. Any thoughts or info would be appreciated..and if anyone is aware of an alternate remote or interesting destination I would also like to hear about it. Please reply by private email if you prefer.

BogMonster · 09 May 2006, 00:09

To be honest I doubt it - I expect you are talking a serious amount of $$ for something like that? I'd love it though

The boating fraternity here tend to be small in number and not all that rich, it is not difficult to ship RIBs from the UK, just expensive (a couple of grand) but in the context of the cost of a new RIB that is not too much - something like a new Humber or (dons hard hat and frantically starts digging trench for shelter) Leeway would be well worth the freight cost to ship down, just that older second hand ones don't make much sense as the freight still costs the same!

But basically it simply isn't a very popular pastime here - though having got a few hours under my belt I don't know why - I love it

Maybe partly because the facilities aren't good, basically if it breaks you fix it yourself or go without (same with many things) and storage/launching facilities are fairly limited.

jwalker · 09 May 2006, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogMonster

...but it is all I have got/can get in this neck of the woods ....

Don't damaged vehicles get repainted in the Falklands? Cellulose thinners is good.

Remember I told you in another thread that it's possible to do what looks like a good repair but it may fail some time later? Your peel-off patch is an example of this. I hope your nail varnish remover doesn't put you in this category. You do have to do it properly if it's to last. Moisture is an enemy.

BogMonster · 09 May 2006, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

Don't damaged vehicles get repainted in the Falklands? Cellulose thinners is good.

Remember I told you in another thread that it's possible to do what looks like a good repair but it may fail some time later? Your peel-off patch is an example of this. I hope your nail varnish remover doesn't put you in this category. You do have to do it properly if it's to last. Moisture is an enemy.

Cellulose thinners are no problem, can get those, but I was a bit wary of using anything like that in case it dissolved the tube! If you reckon cellulose is OK then I'll get some, I thought I read somewhere that it absolutely had to be solvent something-or-other but if you couldn't get that then acetone was the next best thing. I can't really see why you need them at all though, a freshly abraded surface is surely going to be as clean as you can get??

I do remember that. A few false starts and cock ups are better to happen now than when I embark on the big repair job

sunrider · 09 May 2006, 00:17

thanks for the quick reply Stephan - what you say makes perfect sense.

jwalker · 09 May 2006, 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogMonster

Cellulose thinners are no problem, can get those, but I was a bit wary of using anything like that in case it dissolved the tube!

Use cheap standard thinners, often known as gun wash here cos that's what it is mainly used for. Use it when sanding, it swells the hypalon and allows the adhesive to penetrate better. It also makes hand sanding much easier....if you can keep the abrasive grit on the paper!

Use it for cleaning your tubes too. Wipe it over with one rag to remove the dross and then give another wipe to remove any smears. Seal it with 3 coats of floor sealer. The type used for quarry tiles or for putting on your lino floor. It's the stuff that's sloshed on and your mum dares you to walk on it for 15 minutes. Johnson's Klear is what I use here.

Limey Linda · 09 May 2006, 01:41

Please note that the solvent used by most manufacturers of neoprene based fabric is Toluene. It is less agressive than acetone and is used as a primer for glued joints. Suggest NOT using acetone, ( it used to be in nail polish remover but no longer is due to hazard problem) it can destruct some plastic materials and the fumes can cause your brain to sort of go funny. I used to be a production engineer in the auto airbag manufactuing industry, which uses hypalon type material. To properly prime joint surfaces you need two light coats of Toluene spaced about 10 mins apart and allow to dry for another 10 mins. before applying adhesive. Talc. powder is used to coat the rolls of fabric to stop them sticking together and this must be removed and the surface softened. If your follow this procedure you do not need to abrade the surfaces. Higher the amb. temp. shorter the time interval.

BogMonster · 09 May 2006, 05:35

Don't think there is much likelihood of finding toluene here, sadly. What sort of shops would you buy it in? I have never seen it for sale anywhere that I can remember, though on the other hand I haven't really been looking so I may have passed over it, browsing racks of noxious chemicals isn't really something I do much while away on holiday.

The nail varnish remover I bought has acetone in it, because I checked the ingredients on several different types on sale and all had acetone in so I chose the one with the least other ingredients.

Gun wash thinners are good, we have both types (and 2K thinners) in the shop at work so that is easy to find

Thanks for the info

gaviotapete · 09 May 2006, 16:57

I had good results with M.E.K. (Methyl ethyl ketone???) when i was preparing my patches and cleaning my tubes. I put it on a sponge and wiped vigorously and it works great. I know jyaski warns that you need to be careful with this stuff so as not to melt your hypalon so I think you need to be quick when you use it. Has anyone else tried it??

Limey Linda · 09 May 2006, 17:14

I can buy Toluene is hardware stores in the US, Home Depot etc. MEK will work but as already pointed out it is agressive as is acetone. MEK is very difficult to get and is illegal to sell retail in most countries as is causes liver problems as does Trichlorethlyene. The solvent/primer of choice by industry is Toluene.
regards.

jwalker · 09 May 2006, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limey Linda

The solvent/primer of choice by industry is Toluene.

Linda, do a search using the word toluene and the name Manos.