which fire extinguisher

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

AFFF-what a waste of time.

..........with useless AFFF.

Cobblers ! AFFF is absolutely fantastic stuff! When we had it fitted to the pumps (way back in a former life) it made a huge difference in knock down times. We used it for everything barring 'leccy and metals....
The point is it is good for what it was designed for, not in titchy quantities in extinguishers. Stick it through a spray/fog nozzle on an HP reel attached to a 2500L/Min pump and it will put down anything......
In extinguishers, it just makes a water/gas extinguisher more efficient on fires that you would normally tackle with this particular type of extinguisher. Don't remember ever using one on a car fire. DP for fuel fire knock down (No cooling so watch for re-ignition) or CO2 for Engine compartment (through the grill) or small electrical wiring fires to minimise "collateral" damage.
I carry DP on board as fuel leak or spillage seems to be, in my opinion, the biggest threat and DP gets the job done there. Engine fire under the cowling, I suppose CO2 would be my preferred through an aperture followed by copious buckets of (free!) water…… put enough water on most things and they will go out due to the cooling effect, rather than blanketing/starving. Not metals, though I did put out a magnesium fire with water once (huge amounts of water, mind). Spectacular but effective (and definitely not recommended for the faint-hearted)..

Have I rambled on enough yet? Thought so….. TAXI!

[dangers]

So what is the risk of explosion? Is the best course of action on discovering a fire to jump overboard and start swimming or is it sensible to stay on board and try and extinguish the fire? I'm talking petrol outboard engined boats here.

Hope it never happens, but I'd like to have a definite plan if it does.

[codprawn]

To be honest the risk of explosion is prob not that great - when you see cars blowing up in films remember it is staged - I have seen many cars on fire - usually the biggest bang comes from the tyres NOT the tank!

It also makes me laugh seeing people shooting at a car in films and they explode in one almighty bang - in reality it can take a few thousand rounds of tracer and then the wiring usually catches first - I would say 99% of car/plane/boat fires are caused by wiring - a battery kill switch is a must!

For a real laugh watch Bruce Willis in Die Hard - the one at the airport. he manages to light jet fuel on a frozen runway with a Zippo - remember Jet Fuel is Kerosene - very similar to diesel - try lighting that in cold weather!

[Jono]

Originally Posted by dangers

..... but I'd like to have a definite plan if it does.

PANIC?..... always a good first move.... followed by running away?

P.s Good choice of engine.... What do you think of your Prosport?

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by Jono

Cobblers ! AFFF is absolutely fantastic stuff!.........

AFFF in quantity might be good but we are talking about a couple of litres not 2500l a min. so Andy is right AFFF is a waste of time . And for that matter so is CO2, in small quantities, in anything other than a very confined space e.g. a broom cupboard. In a car engine bay fire, the whole of the bottom of the engine bay is in effect open, so anything that is sprayed through the grill easily floods out onto the road.

The joy of Halon is that it will put out fires at a concentration of less than 10% (I think only 7%) where CO2 needs concentrations of 80% upwards (from memory so do not use for navigation).

CO2 works by ‘blanketing’ the fire in effect replacing air with CO2 and it is heaver than air, so on an inboard engine it might have some effect, however if you consider that you are trying to fill a 200 to 300 ltr space at 50% you will need a lot of CO2. Equally CO2 is effected by wind so will quickly dissipate on the type of summer days we’re having. I am sure a dive will be able to tell me the size of cylinder required for 300 ltr of CO2. Des

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by dangers

Does anybody know if having a fire extinguisher on board entitles you to a reduction in insurance premium?

I think you will find that it's more a case of "no extinguisher, no insurance!"

[Manos]

In Greece Coastguard recommends to use 2kg POWDER SS fire extinguisher for a boat up to 6.5 mtrs with up to 100 ltrs fuel tank capacity. (Not that this will do anything much if a fire develops but it helps)

The cost is at Euro 55.00

[Jono]

Double post... comes from having fingers like Bananas, I suppose....

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

AFFF in quantity might be good but we are talking about a couple of litres not 2500l a min. so Andy is right AFFF is a waste of time Des

Err.. read my post again..."The point is it is good for what it was designed for, not in titchy quantities in extinguishers."

Please, if you're going to lecture and/or correct me, which is fine by me, at least take the time to read the post fully.

The original statement was "AFFF is a waste of time". This is incorrect. If the statement had read "AFFF in 10 litre extinguishers is a waste of time on engine bay fires" , then this would have been correct.

[Daniel TD5]

Originally Posted by Manos

In Greece Coastguard recommends to use 2kg POWDER SS fire extinguisher for a boat up to 6.5 mtrs with up to 100 ltrs fuel tank capacity. (Not that this will do anything much if a fire develops but it helps)

The cost is at Euro 55.00

MANOS

IS GREECE PART OF THE EU IF SO WHY IS IT NOT RED LIKE IT SHOULD BE

DAN

[Manos]

Originally Posted by Daniel TD5

MANOS

IS GREECE PART OF THE EU IF SO WHY IS IT NOT RED LIKE IT SHOULD BE

DAN

Don't know Dan Ask the Greek Fire Brigade

On the RIBs that we hire out we have the red ones (which by the way are cheaper about Euro 35.00 each and 3kg ) but on my boat I have the SS like that one. It was all surveyed and I got the the stamp so I guess is OK.

[Andy Stevens]

Originally Posted by Jono

Err.. read my post again..."The point is it is good for what it was designed for, not in titchy quantities in extinguishers."

Please, if you're going to lecture and/or correct me, which is fine by me, at least take the time to read the post fully.

and before you tell me I'm wrong for slagging off AFFF, the thread was about fire extinguishers on RIBS, not other places, in hand held units. Maybe in quantity sure but as hand held units, they stink, i have seen far too many cars dissapear!

"putting" out the fire after a crash

six litres of AFFF later putting out a fire on a dizzy

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

and before you tell me I'm wrong for slagging off AFFF, the thread was about fire extinguishers on RIBS, not other places, in hand held units. Maybe in quantity sure but as hand held units, they stink, i have seen far too many cars dissapear!

"putting" out the fire after a crash

six litres of AFFF later putting out a fire on a dizzy

...then why did you/they use AFFF extinguishers? Why not use DP?.. and you are wrong for slagging off AFFF when you actually mean AFFF extinguishers used for fighting fires on Autos/boats. Believe me as a serving Firefighter with two motorways going through my patch, I had to deal with more than a few car fires in my life and I was only correcting your comment that AFFF was useless. Wrong. AFFF is great. AFFF extinguishers are fine in their place, that is as "upgraded" water/gas extinguishers, not as firefighting media for car/boat fires So why are the "marshals" on rallies useing AFFF extinguishers? Cost? Legislation? Lack of knowledge? Lack of proper equipment? Enlighten me.....

[Daniel TD5]

i did not start this thread slag off AFFF or any fire fighting method

as it as been pointed out that most fires are wireing related under the engine
cover i will check mine more to make sure nothing is rubbing

but we all must agree all ribs should have at least one fire extinguisher fitted
and the smallest should be at least 2kg dry foam or AFFF

maybe halon if you can nick one

dan

[Andy Stevens]

Motorsport in the UK is governed by the Motorsport Association (MSA) All rally cars running on an MSA logbook have to have a plumbed in unit spraying into the engine bay onto the induction/ignition area and a hand held unit for use by the drivers to put cockpit fires out.

You are not allowed to carry anything other than AFFF on a stage rally. EVERYONE is moaning that the stuff doesn't put the fires out they are having!

I quote from a road rally forum like ribnet:

Subject: motorsport fire ext. why foamy water?
tompsk

Junior Member
Posts 10
Registered 2-2-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood:
posted on 24-2-2004 at 07:14 PM

motorsport fire ext. why foamy water?

After using the minimum MSA size foamy water fire extinguishers (both hand held and plumbed in) on small vehicle fires I must say I'm NOT impressed. They don't last very long and their fire fighting ability doesn't seem to be that good. I would not like to rely on them on anything but a small fire.

I guess the ones carried in the car are there to give crews vital seconds to get out and not necessaraly save the car.

Is there a reason why dry powder or CO2 isn't used? Are these types any good? Were the old ones (now banned) any better?


Yet another one:

My comment comes following the recent demise of local, to me, Newark driver Barry Jordan whilst on the Mutiny Rally. (MN Page14).

Do any of our 'more in touch' members know what the likes of the MSA are doing to address these constant claims of the lack of extinguishing properties of AFFF.

These guys only had a small carb fire which took hold despite the plumped in system and 4 hand helds being used !!

I feel that I will not be the only one who feels a little anxious about this - I would like to think that those red bottles in my car would do the job.


So you see, we have to use them cos the LAW says so, yet there isn;t a single person who says it works, we are all miffed and want a change and it's onle when someone is trapped in their car burnt to death that they might look at it. Ok given the right machine/pump etc AFFF might work yet a hand held AFFF couldn't put out one of my farts!

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

..... Ok given the right machine/pump etc AFFF might work yet a hand held AFFF couldn't put out one of my farts!

So let's agree on three things then?

One -AFFF is not right for Auto/ small boat use.

Two - AFFF is good stuff in the right environment

Three - Your Farts must be special.....

P.s Brownie points for those who know how AFFF works and why "foam" is a mis-nomer....

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

I am sure a dive will be able to tell me the size of cylinder required for 300 ltr of CO2. Des

From memory they are pressured to 200 bar or abouts, so 1.5L

"P.s Brownie points for those who know how AFFF works and why "foam" is a mis-nomer"

What was astonishing was how effective it still was sometime after the foam had disappeared and the chemical still stopped ptrol from being re-lit.

Pete

[Jono]

Careful, 'cause CO2 is not gaseous under pressure, so the "normal" rules don't apply. You have to work on its "expansion" rate when turning from liquid to gas... buggered if I can remember what it is...

[Mark Halliday]

Andy is correct with regards motorsport fire fighting. AFFF is mandatory in speed motorsport events. It was due to become so at the end of 2000 but problems with AFFF or Zero 2000 postponed the ban untill the end of 2003, because some extinguishers failed to either go off or when thy did, failed in some cases to put out the fire. The MSA is still researching a replacement.

Jono
Am I correct in thinking AFFF is an additive (aqueous foaming agent) used with water. The extinguisher does not contain foam, it contains water which is mixed with AFFF to produce a foam blanket, thus restricting oxygen from reaching the fuel?

[dangers]

Originally Posted by Jono

PANIC?..... always a good first move.... followed by running away?

P.s Good choice of engine.... What do you think of your Prosport?

Very pleased with it. Its my first rib, so I'm amazed by the seakeeping. Don't know how it compares to other makes (apart from price!) so living in blissful ignorance. Some say they are a bit flat in the bow, and I have already stuffed it a couple of times. Advice from other ribsters is give it more throttle and a bit more trim.